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Author | Topic: Who Made God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member (Idle past 295 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Faith writes: My point, apparently unclear enough to allow for all kinds of weirdness instead of honest answers, is that the Bible offers REAL history and REAL prophecy in REAL space-time. That wasn't lost on anyone.Everyone's aware of your thoughts on such a matter. I'm not ignoring your point because I think you're wrong.I'm ignoring your point because it doesn't detract at all from the point I'm making. Since it doesn't matter to my point, engaging with it would only take away from the point I'm trying to make. My point isn't about your thoughts, it's about how many religions are similar to the Bible. Without getting into which are true and which are not, many religions provide an historical narrative about people they consider to be real doing things they think led to the world being such as it is today. I totally agree that you think the Bible does this truthfully, and that all other religions do this incorrectly (either lying on purpose, or possibly without their own knowledge of it being wrong). However, that doesn't change the fact that they are all similar in that they all do it. Regardless of who does it accurately or not (such is up to the individual to identify for themselves) or even usefully or not. This is just to say that there is some layer of similarity.This is not to say that I think they are all exactly the same. Just the fact that they can all be called "a religion" implies that there is some layer of similarity. Otherwise they all couldn't be identified using the same word.In turn, the fact that they are called "different religions" implies that they are not all exactly the same. Otherwise they couldn't be called different. That layer of similarity will go so far, and then begin to break down. Your insistence that no religion is similar to the Bible in any way is silly. Obviously all religions are similar in the sense that they have followers (whether correct to follow or not).All religions have precious items (holy books, symbols... things like that). All religions have some sort of code you need to adhere to (moral perhaps, maybe even just a dress-code). In this sense ALL religions are similar to the Bible. In the sense of having an historical narrative attempting to speak of people they think are real doing things they think led to the state of the world today... MOST religions are similar to the Bible. Maybe all of them, again? I don't really know. None of this suggests whether or not any of those religions are true or valid. Not every idea is an attempt to attack your personal views.Most of us really don't care what your views are, we have our own to worry about
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
I will respond by only quoting you (plus a few small Luther quotes later) and not quoting myself or anybody else.
I suppose you will say that my quotes of you are "too long" for you to read. But here was your last response to me.
quote: Just before this, I simply asked you what the difference was between Martin Luther questioning books and scholars looking at things. You said:
quote: Remember how this all got started. You said:
quote: Somebody pointed out that the book has historical troubles. You responded with a few posts.
quote: The poster responded and you then responded:
quote: Here is a link on Luther's Canon. Luther's canon - Wikipedia Here one of many anti-Esther quotes from Martin Luther (this one from Table Talk)
quote: Go to Bing and type in MARTIN LUTHER ESTHER Here is another Luther quote
quote: I keep asking you why you keep attacking people who point out that "The Bible" has been discovered to be the work of man as oppose to the work of a deity? You want to side step any rational discussion. Please spend some time telling us why Luther (the first modern scholar to reject Esther as divine) is somehow o.k. while modern scholars are so evil. You had a problem with Bruce Metzger when we were discussing Mark 16:9-20 (you kept saying that modern scholars like him were anti Christian non believers), but then I quoted Eusebius saying that the vast majority of Mark manuscripts lacked those 12 verses. Why can't you answer the question and address the fact that Luther rejected all these Biblical books ( at least 5 in the current King James, plus over a dozen more STILL when you look at the Apocryphal books in the 1611 King James). He rejected: Esther James Hebrews Revelation Jude 5 of the 66 Bible books and 4 of the 27 New Testament books we rejected by Luther.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: So there was always "something", right? But then the question will always be "where did that come from?". The must have been a time when there was absolutely "nothing" (we used to always think of space itself as always existing until we learned to look back in time through telescopes, but we now know that was in fact "something", and a something that didn't always exist) everywhere. (I will not even attempt to come up with a "solution" because it would be a joke) My only suggestion is that we look (for an idea of what was going on) outside our own universe for any "place" this might have been going on (and don't even bring up the issue of "time" in the "time and place"). There can be clues from our own universe, but everything here (we know of) seems to have been after there was already particle building blocks seemingly already "evolved" (from wherever?) if one knows about the quantum fluctuations. Heinz Pagels died in a tragic mountain climbing accident (at all too young of an age), but his quotes are interesting. Google keyword heinz pagels laws physics vacuum or Heinz pagels quotes or heinz pagels law physics void big bang This quote was interesting.
quote: quote: He was looking at our own universe.
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Phat Member Posts: 18638 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
nwr writes: Which brings up another question. Do We Need God? Thus we basically have two questions. It is my understanding that uncaused quantum events are happening all the time.So who needs an uncaused cause, when such uncaused things are all around us? Philosophically, the debates at EvC Forum center around the usefulness, purpose, and methodology of science as well as the philosophy of belief and of how and what it says. Ours is a forum of atheists, agnostics, and believers and there shouldn't really be a conflict with science. The fact that there is is one of the main issues that make up the debate. jar has successfully argued that there is GOD, Who (if existing) is complete. Well beyond human description. Humans worship Gods that they understand...thus in the sense of linguistic and verbal description, We Made God. Hardcore believers vehemently disagree, claiming that the Bible was inspired by God Himself as it was transcribed. Much energy has been invested by organized religion to propagate this teaching.
Taq writes:
Or we became aware of God. How would we tell the difference?
The first answer that comes to my mind is that we made God in the same way that we made Zeus, Thor, and the thousands and thousands of other gods that humans have believed in.ringo writes: Imagine that you one day became aware of a certain car. By definition, it eased your anxiety, confirmed your desire, and was capable of getting you to where you wanted to go. Without seeing a picture of it and without another description of it, could you say you made it up (imagined it) or could it be possible that you simply became aware of it?
Asking, "Who made God?" is like asking, "Who made all of those cars?" Just like the cars, those gods were made by a lot of different manufacturers, often with different goals in mind. stile writes: Perhaps it is natural to anthropomorphize a character, just as one would think of a car when they thought of a transport vehicle. The question remains unanswered whether one becomes aware of a concept already existing or whether one literally makes it up. Or do you mean to say that this is merely your conclusion and that you understand that your conclusion is an assertion with no evidence?In that case, I agree with Taq and Ringo... we made God. God just seems so anthropomorphic that considering him not to be made by us... seems like a pretty big stretch. When believers become born again, they quite naturally feel as if they are suddenly aware of Gods presence, through Jesus Christ. The point remains, however, that the story was fed to them before they experienced the awareness. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 664 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Unless I could actually get into it and drive it, it's pretty obvious that it's just made up.
Imagine that you one day became aware of a certain car. By definition, it eased your anxiety, confirmed your desire, and was capable of getting you to where you wanted to go. Without seeing a picture of it and without another description of it, could you say you made it up (imagined it) or could it be possible that you simply became aware of it?
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Taq Member Posts: 10297 Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
Phat writes: Which brings up another question. Do We Need God? Thus we basically have two questions. I think it could be argued that some people need to believe in God in order to find meaning in their life. However, reality isn't forced to make something real simply because humans need to believe in it.
Or we became aware of God. How would we tell the difference? If a made up deity is indistinguishable from the deity you believe in, then the conclusion should be obvious.
Imagine that you one day became aware of a certain car. By definition, it eased your anxiety, confirmed your desire, and was capable of getting you to where you wanted to go. Without seeing a picture of it and without another description of it, could you say you made it up (imagined it) or could it be possible that you simply became aware of it? Imagine if your neighbor got a car, and he invites you over to take a look. Upon looking in the garage you don't see a car. Your neighbor tells you that the car is invisible. You then ask if you can throw some flour on top of the car to show that it exists. Your neighbor explains that all matter passes through the car. You come up with test after test after test to possibly show that the car exists, but each time you neighbor tells you that the results of that test will be indistinguishable from that car not existing. At what point do you just stop and conclude that your neighbor is making it up?
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Phat Member Posts: 18638 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
Taq writes: I would ask several questions.
Imagine if your neighbor got a car, and he invites you over to take a look. Upon looking in the garage you don't see a car. Your neighbor tells you that the car is invisible. You then ask if you can throw some flour on top of the car to show that it exists. Your neighbor explains that all matter passes through the car. You come up with test after test after test to possibly show that the car exists, but each time you neighbor tells you that the results of that test will be indistinguishable from that car not existing.At what point do you just stop and conclude that your neighbor is making it up? It depends howq well I know my neighbor and whether or not he has been illogical previously.I also dont need proof of the car as long as such a car would also be proven useful to me and whether I too could acquire such a car. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Phat writes: It depends howq well I know my neighbor and whether or not he has been illogical previously. It really doesn't does it? You have all the evidence you need to know that your neighbour not only doesn't have a car but is also deluded about thinking he has.
I also dont need proof of the car as long as such a car would also be proven useful to me and whether I too could acquire such a car. How can an imaginary car be useful to you? (I suspect the analogy has just collapsed.)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18638 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
allow me to resurrect the analogy.
My neighbor Fred, whom I've had a casual relationship with for several years, informs me that whenever he is despondent, or whenever he knows of friends or family who is struggling, he retreats to his garage. In his garage, he says, is something(SomeOne) who is greater and more powerful than any human or any invention of humanity.The presence will take him wherever he needs to go. Skeptical yet mildly intrigued, you follow him around back to his garage. It contains the usual bells and smells, but aside from that it appears empty. There are some cushions to kneel on, and some chairs to sit quietly in and escape from the noise of the city around you. He at least soundproofed his garage, and it admittedly is an oasis of silence and meditation. Apart from that, however, there is nothing there that you can detect. Being the eminently logical chap that you are, you bring this fact to his attention. How he responds to you at this point is arguably the only evidence that you will have that his oasis may or may not be worth using. He has, of course, told you that you and your family are free to use it at any time. Quite naturally, you have other ideas and methods of dealing with your stress and of helping others. At that time, you are quite sure you would never use his garage for any solution for any of your problems nor would you allow your family to go in there. He had insisted to you that there was a presence of peace and serenity in his garage, and though it did seem comfortable and quiet, you had experienced the same bells and smells in your childhood in buildings much fancier than his garage. Now the questions:
Many would prefer a quiet walk in the woods or at least outdoors. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 91 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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You do understand that you changed the topic completely don't you Phat?
Consider this starting point.
Phat writes: In his garage, he says, is something(SomeOne) who is greater and more powerful than any human or any invention of humanity. The presence will take him wherever he needs to go. Now jump to the summation.
Phat writes:
Would you trust your neighbors judgement? Why or why not? Note you totally changed the topic from "something(SomeOne) who is greater and more powerful than any human or any invention of humanity. The presence will take him wherever he needs to go. " to a place for contemplation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 664 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Whenever I ask you where I can get a car like that, you tell me I don't want one.
I also dont need proof of the car as long as such a car would also be proven useful to me and whether I too could acquire such a car.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Phat writes: Would you ever find yourself needing a place of solitude and meditation? No, never.
Many would prefer a quiet walk in the woods or at least outdoors. Yup. I go fishing, but that's because I like fishing.
Would you believe that a psychiatrist and his cabinet of drugs would provide a better solution for your stresses and agonies than a quiet contemplative garage that had a comfortable place of solitude? I don't suffer from stresses and agonies. When I have problems to deal with I try to tackle them head on. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Would you trust your neighbors judgement? Why or why not? Can't tell - the fact that he retires to his garage to think or whatever, doesn't tell me how good a dentist he is. I'd prefer a contemplative chap like that to a fundamental religious believer any day though.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18638 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
tangle writes: Define lucky. You know that I have issues with luck and chance. ...When I have problems to deal with I try to tackle them head on. Maybe I'm just lucky.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Phat writes: Define lucky. It only has one meaning - don't try to overcomplicate it. I'm lucky in that the things that seem to torture you don't concern me at all. It's luck because I didn't do anything to be this way.
You know that I have issues with luck and chance. You do, but the rest of us are fine with it so perhaps it's you not chance and luck?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10297 Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
Phat writes: I would ask several questions.Why did you want to tell me about this car that I cannot perceive? Can I watch you drive the car? How often do you use this car? How did you come to acquire this car?
1. I was told to tell you about the car by a holy book.2. You can only drive the car in the afterlife where no one can see you but other people in the afterlife. 3. See above. 4. An invisible car salesman sold me the car. It depends howq well I know my neighbor and whether or not he has been illogical previously. I also dont need proof of the car as long as such a car would also be proven useful to me and whether I too could acquire such a car. Then I have an invisible bridge to sell you.
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