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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Stile
Member (Idle past 292 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 151 of 872 (825908)
12-19-2017 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
12-17-2017 11:55 AM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
You're wrong, Stile, other religions are NOT like the Bible and you have said nothing to prove otherwise.
The way I see it, the Bible is mostly an historical narrative about real who have a relationship God.
It includes prophecy, miracles, and stories that reflect moral guidance.
I think many other religions fit this category.
-mostly historical narratives about real people who have a relationship with their God
-includes prophecy
-includes miracles
-includes stories that reflect moral guidance
...I actually have a hard time finding a religion that does not meet these similarities.
You're correct that the specifics and details are always different. But I find that to be expected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 11:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 12-19-2017 3:44 PM Stile has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 152 of 872 (825943)
12-19-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by PaulK
12-17-2017 5:14 PM


Re: The true threat from the folk like Faith is clear.
So, to recap.
You claimed that:
I do remember that the mystery writer Dorothy Sayers wrote about her conversion by realizing that King Artaxerxes (the king in the book of Esther) really existed
and tried to claim that it was a sensible argument. Now I suspect you are leaving something out - Perhaps Sayers was only six at the time - but it is extraordinarily silly.
If we compare Esther with The Three Musketeers It doesn’t come off well.
We know that King Louis XIII was a real person. We don’t know if the Ahasuerus of Esther is meant to be Artaxerxes - or if he was, which of the several Kings of that name is meant.
We know who Queen Anne was, we don’t know if Queen Vashti was even based on a real person
We know who Cardinal Richelieu was, we don’t know who - if anyone - Haman was.
We even know that d’Artagnan was a real person which is more than can be said for Esther.
Are we supposed to think that The Three Musketeers is real history for that reason ? Never mind the almost fairy-tale story of Esther!
I suppose it’s not surprising then that you offer nothing substantive in support of your assertion and eventually retreat to making equally evidence-free attacks on Bible scholars - refusing to discuss the points I raise against your assertions and giving up when I challenge you to produce a real example.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 5:14 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 153 of 872 (825947)
12-19-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Stile
12-19-2017 10:41 AM


Re: Play Fair
I think many other religions fit this category.
-mostly historical narratives about real people who have a relationship with their God
-includes prophecy
-includes miracles
-includes stories that reflect moral guidance
There is no other religion that even includes a historical narrative intended to support its religious views, at best it's all circumstantial. And there is absolutely not one shred of prophecy in any other religion, and so far only two "miracles" have been proposed for any other religion, without any convincing context whatever. It's all predominantly teachings.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Stile, posted 12-19-2017 10:41 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Taq, posted 12-19-2017 6:11 PM Faith has replied
 Message 159 by Stile, posted 12-20-2017 12:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10293
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 154 of 872 (825950)
12-19-2017 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
12-19-2017 3:44 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
There is no other religion that even includes a historical narrative intended to support its religious views, at best it's all circumstantial.
Hindu creation story:
The Hindu Creation Story
Faith writes:
And there is absolutely not one shred of prophecy in any other religion, and so far only two "miracles" have been proposed for any other religion, without any convincing context whatever.
Hindu prophecies:
http://www.crystalinks.com/hindu2.html
Islamic prophecies:
A Key Islamic Prophecy, Fulfilled by a New Faith - BahaiTeachings.org
Mayan prophecies:
The 7 Maya Prophecies: Destruction or Evolution? - Yucatan Today
Hindu miracle:
Ganesha drinking milk miracle - Wikipedia
Does Google not work for you?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 12-19-2017 3:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 12-19-2017 6:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 155 of 872 (825951)
12-19-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Taq
12-19-2017 6:11 PM


Re: Play Fair
If you're going to put that demonic nonsense on a par with the Bible the conversation has bcome too irrational to continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Taq, posted 12-19-2017 6:11 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Taq, posted 12-20-2017 11:27 AM Faith has replied
 Message 157 by jar, posted 12-20-2017 11:40 AM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10293
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 156 of 872 (825980)
12-20-2017 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
12-19-2017 6:26 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
If you're going to put that demonic nonsense on a par with the Bible the conversation has bcome too irrational to continue.
The only one being irrational is you. You claimed that no other religion had prophecies and miracles, but that is clearly untrue. A simple Google search shows that you are wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 12-19-2017 6:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 12:01 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 872 (825983)
12-20-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
12-19-2017 6:26 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
If you're going to put that demonic nonsense on a par with the Bible the conversation has bcome too irrational to continue.
The reality though is that the Hindu Vedas have a longer history than the Bible and the Quran has greater consistency, authority and fewer contradictions than the Bible. There is but one Quran while there is a different Bible depending on which Canon is determinate. Just as with Christianity there are different Chapters of Club Islam, unlike Christianity they all have the exact same Quran while the Christian Canons vary from just five books to over 80 books.
Edited by jar, : then ----> than

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 12-19-2017 6:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 12:08 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 158 of 872 (825985)
12-20-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Taq
12-20-2017 11:27 AM


Re: Play Fair
I was thinking of prophecies of real historical events in real historical time, something with at least the specificity of the biblical Messiah prophecies, not their weird unworldly history of Hinduism or the vagueness of the others. And miracles on the order of those in the Bible, not that little milik-drinking statue nonsense.
But that's OK, I'm beginning to understand that nobody here gets the point of any of this anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Taq, posted 12-20-2017 11:27 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Taq, posted 12-20-2017 1:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 292 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 159 of 872 (825986)
12-20-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
12-19-2017 3:44 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
There is no other religion that even includes a historical narrative intended to support its religious views, at best it's all circumstantial.
I understand that you believe the Bible... and you don't believe the other religions.
You think the Bible is true... and you don't think the other religions are true.
That's apparent.
That's also not what I'm talking about.
The Bible includes a historical narrative (in the sense that it attempts to speak of history... regardless of it being true or not).
Other religions also include a historical narrative (in the sense that they attempt to speak of history... regardless of them being true or not).
Can you agree that many different religions "attempt to speak of history" regardless of their ability to be true or not?
It is very apparent that you think the Bible is true, and other religions are not.
But, can you agree that many religions attempt to speak of history? Regardless of the possible truth-value of their narrative?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 12-19-2017 3:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 12:10 PM Stile has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 160 of 872 (825987)
12-20-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
12-20-2017 11:40 AM


Re: Play Fair
Not for anybody but you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 12-20-2017 11:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 12-20-2017 12:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 161 of 872 (825988)
12-20-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Stile
12-20-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Play Fair
My impression is that there is really NO history of anything related to earth in any other religion, whereas most of the Bible is history. The Bible covers a long long period in the history of Israel, touching on many actual places and people known to secular history. There's something laughable about saying any other religion is about history at all.
What does "attempting to speak of history" even mean? The Bible has very lengthy TRUE history covering many centuries of real earth time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Stile, posted 12-20-2017 12:07 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Stile, posted 12-20-2017 1:49 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 162 of 872 (825990)
12-20-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
12-20-2017 12:08 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
Not for anybody but you.
Yet the facts remain true Faith.
As I pointed out, there is no such thing as "The Christian Bible" rather different branches of Christianity have decided that different books are canonical. There is no single Bible accepted by all of Christianity.
In Islam, regardless of the sect, there is but one Quran.
The stories in the Christian Bibles are for the most part written, edited and redacted by anonymous individuals.
In Islam there is only a single source for the Quran, Mohamed.
The Vedas predate any Christian Bibles as do the writings of Confucius or Mencius and the teachings of the Buddha.
Reality is Faith, as much as you like to deny it.
Edited by jar, : fro ----> for

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 12:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10293
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 163 of 872 (825992)
12-20-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
12-20-2017 12:01 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
I was thinking of prophecies of real historical events in real historical time, something with at least the specificity of the biblical Messiah prophecies, not their weird unworldly history of Hinduism or the vagueness of the others. And miracles on the order of those in the Bible, not that little milik-drinking statue nonsense.
Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies, unless you are leaving out some history where Jesus led Israel and conquered all of its enemies. Christianity is on the same level as those other religions.
As to miracles, I can find just as many in other religions:
"One story tells how 500 pieces of firewood split at the Buddha's command. In another, a mad elephant charged wildly down a street forcing everyone to flee. Only the Buddha remained, quietly waiting. The elephant, overcome by the Buddha’s radiant kindness, knelt before him, and the Buddha patted his leathery trunk."
Miracles | The Buddha | PBS
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 12:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 292 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 164 of 872 (825995)
12-20-2017 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
12-20-2017 12:10 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
What does "attempting to speak of history" even mean?
That they try to explain things they think happened in the past that led to their present state today.
Regardless of it being true or not.
Like me saying "When I was a kid I learned hard work... I walked to school and back, uphill both ways!"
1 - Untrue without some clever usage of withholding significant information
2 - However I do speak about the past, and how it led to my present state today.
I am "attempting to speak of history" even though the truth-value is irrelevant.
It is a "historical narrative" in this sense.
Can you agree that other religions have "historical narratives" in this sense where we are not concerned about the truth-value being accurate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 12:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 2:18 PM Stile has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 165 of 872 (825999)
12-20-2017 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Stile
12-20-2017 1:49 PM


Re: Play Fair
My point, apparently unclear enough to allow for all kinds of weirdness instead of honest answers, is that the Bible offers REAL history and REAL prophecy in REAL space-time. Demonic imitations are a bore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Stile, posted 12-20-2017 1:49 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Stile, posted 12-20-2017 3:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
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