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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 696 (825743)
12-17-2017 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
12-17-2017 2:15 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
Is there some reason the Flood has to be a miracle? Seems to me it left clear physical evidence...
You're wrong. It didn't leave the evidence that it should have. All of the available evidence shows that the Flood didn't happen.
Faith writes:
... creationists don't treat it as a miracle...
Answers In Genesis says:
quote:
Other miraculous events in Genesis would include the Flood, the confusion of languages at Babel, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Is it still fun being wrong ALL of the time, or do you ever get tired of it?
Faith writes:
... they try to explain it by physical events.
And fail dismally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 2:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 152 of 696 (825745)
12-17-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Tangle
12-17-2017 2:28 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
We ask the priest to do it again with London bridge. This time the scientist have every bit of equipment imaginable. It all checks out.
Exactly how does it "check out"? How tall is the bearded man? What do the MRI scans indicate? Is he human? Alien? Same for the cherub: Did you do a polygraph on him? How far is it to the Pearly Gates? What are their orbital characteristics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 2:28 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:38 PM ringo has replied
 Message 156 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 3:44 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 696 (825746)
12-17-2017 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:36 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
One reason that you never became a believer is that you insist on making GOD a subset of human wisdom and understanding rather than something beyond our understanding. It allows you to maintain an illusion of control over your own fate.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:42 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 154 of 696 (825750)
12-17-2017 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
12-17-2017 2:38 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
One reason that you never became a believer is that you insist on making GOD a subset of human wisdom and understanding rather than something beyond our understanding.
Stop and think about that. How can we understand anything that's beyond our understanding?
Phat writes:
It allows you to maintain an illusion of control over your own fate.
On the contrary, as I've told you many times, I often wish that I didn't have to take responsibility for my own fate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 3:03 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 696 (825758)
12-17-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:42 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
How can we understand anything that's beyond our understanding?
We can't. But we can believe. Some are just afraid of the implications. Others trust the presumption.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 156 of 696 (825768)
12-17-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:36 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Ringo writes:
Exactly how does it "check out"? How tall is the bearded man? What do the MRI scans indicate? Is he human? Alien? Same for the cherub: Did you do a polygraph on him? How far is it to the Pearly Gates? What are their orbital characteristics?
I can provide you with every possible piece of information you ask for, god and his minions are co-operating fully. Just ask and you get the answer. You're free to test anything with anything.
Satisfied?
Or have you, in fact, found yourself arguing non-scientifically like a creationist demananding the absolute proof that you can't actually define and believe can't exist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:50 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 157 of 696 (825827)
12-18-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Tangle
12-17-2017 2:17 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
breaking natural/scientific laws=impossible
You keep leaving out important words in the definitions that you quote. "An event that APPEARS inexplicable by the laws of nature", not IS inexplicable by the laws of nature - "is HELD to be supernatural", not IS supernatural. "ATTRIBUTED to a divine agency", not "CAUSED by a divine agency".
A miracle is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural power. It is possible that every single attribution is wrong but that isn't the issue. Events are ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural power because somebody THINKS it's breaking natural/scientific laws, not because it is.
An obvious example is an image of Jesus on a piece of toast. Some people THINK it's impossible for it to happen naturally, so they call it a miracle. Others call it pareidolia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 2:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 10:51 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 158 of 696 (825828)
12-18-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
12-17-2017 3:03 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
Some are just afraid of the implications.
I can keep correcting you as often as you keep being wrong about it. No. I WISH the implications were true. Unfortunately, there's no reason to think they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 3:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 10:50 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 696 (825830)
12-18-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
I WISH the implications were true. Unfortunately, there's no reason to think they are.
There is no reason for you to think that they are, perhaps. You cant define everyone's reason, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:52 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 160 of 696 (825831)
12-18-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Tangle
12-17-2017 3:44 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
Or have you, in fact, found yourself arguing non-scientifically like a creationist demananding the absolute proof that you can't actually define and believe can't exist.
I'm not demanding absolute proof. On the contrary, I'm asking for the evidence that any science-minded person would ask for. You claim to have provided it, just like Faith claims to have provided evidence for the Flood but you don't seem to understand that every "answer" produces more questions. You don't get to stop and say, "This is The Answer™." You can't just insert God here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 3:44 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 161 of 696 (825832)
12-18-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:43 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
You can dick around as long as you like with definitions, semantics and avoidance tactics but we both know that to be a miracle supernatual intervention is necessary and that breaks the laws of nature.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 162 of 696 (825834)
12-18-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
12-18-2017 10:50 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
There is no reason for you to think that they are, perhaps. You cant define everyone's reason, however.
I'm not. You admit yourself that you don't have a reason, that it's just a belief. I'm saying that there's no reason to think YOUR belief is "more correct" than somebody else's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 10:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 10:53 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 696 (825835)
12-18-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:52 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Oh ok..

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:52 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 164 of 696 (825836)
12-18-2017 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Tangle
12-18-2017 10:51 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
You can dick around as long as you like with definitions, semantics and avoidance tactics but we both know that to be a miracle supernatual intervention is necessary and that breaks the laws of nature.
You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 10:51 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 11:22 AM ringo has replied
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 165 of 696 (825838)
12-18-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
12-17-2017 2:24 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
There is surely more than one thing that we may never figure out.
Maybe there is. But how do we know which things we can't figure out unless we try to figure them out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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