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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 106 of 872 (689575)
02-01-2013 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by PaulK
02-01-2013 4:27 AM


Re: Evidence
No, I do not rely on my mind in the sense I mean that you do. I started with believing it and learned from there what I didn't know at first, SUBMITTING my own opinions to the Bible. The first thing is not to judge the Bible but let it judge you, but you judge it instead, you start from your own doubts and follow experts because they say things you agree with basically. You insist on evidence it doesn't offer instead of submitting to the evidence it does offer.
I had to give up one idea of my own after another in order to come to faith in Christ through the Bible. I had objections to things in it and among Christians just as many here do, but because I believed it was God's word I submitted to it as my judge and determined to learn from it, and over time have come to agree with what I didn't agree with originally. Eventually I learned what it means to say that faith is the evidence of things unseen. Of course I used many teachers in learning it while reading it myself as well. That's why God gave the church pastors and teachers as the scripture says. If I don't understand something I put it aside hoping I'll understand it later.
There was a point when I was just beginning to believe where it seemed that I didn't understand anything about anything because here there really was a God which I'd denied for the first half of my life, and here there was this Bible that I now believed to be God's own communication, and it contradicted half the things I thought I knew, or really it had turned everything I'd believed before that on its head, and I had to start from scratch. I had become willing to be wrong -- about everything I'd ever thought. That's a form of humility, not pride. Give up what you think you know, ask God to teach you. That's not pride.
You and others here reject it when something in it doesn't sit right with your personal judgment and you agree with others who came to the same conclusion.
The command is to "Believe," and that's where you have to start or you're going to end up loster than ever. Seems to me you have to give up your pride in order to believe, rather than the other way around.
REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED.
That's it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by PaulK, posted 02-01-2013 4:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Theodoric, posted 02-01-2013 9:04 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 02-01-2013 9:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


(3)
(1)
Message 107 of 872 (689582)
02-01-2013 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
02-01-2013 5:15 AM


Re: Evidence
REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED.
I believe there are internet forums for preaching. This isn't one of them.
I reject your concept of a god totally and completely. If your god existed I would tell him to fuck himself for all of the misery he has caused.
Now go to church if you want to preach.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 02-01-2013 5:15 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 4:01 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17909
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 108 of 872 (689586)
02-01-2013 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
02-01-2013 5:15 AM


Re: Evidence
quote:
No, I do not rely on my mind in the sense I mean that you do. I started with believing it and learned from there what I didn't know at first, SUBMITTING my own opinions to the Bible.
Even if that is true you had to come to that decision in some way. And you also need to interpret the Bible. Even if you rely on what other people tell you the Bible says then you have to decide who to trust.
quote:
The first thing is not to judge the Bible but let it judge you, but you judge it instead, you start from your own doubts and follow experts because they say things you agree with basically.
Actually that sounds a lot more like what you do. Except that you don't believe the real experts. Not everyone is as prejudiced and as proud as you.
quote:
You insist on evidence it doesn't offer instead of submitting to the evidence it does offer.
You mean that I insist on real evidence instead of mindlessly believing people who TELL me what to believe. I've read the Bible. I claim no special expertise but it still seems that I know it better than you. And that is very telling. If you were REALLY following the Bible you should be able to discuss it at least on my level. Apparently you can't - or at least you can't rationally refute my points.
quote:
.I had become willing to be wrong -- about everything I'd ever thought. That's a form of humility, not pride.
You forget that I've read a good many of your posts here. You arrogantly pontificate on subjects you know almost nothing about. I've seen you get violently angry and complain how people are "stupid" just for disagreeing with your opinions. Don't try to boast about your humility in front of me.
quote:
The command is to "Believe," and that's where you have to start or you're going to end up loster than ever. Seems to me you have to give up your pride in order to believe, rather than the other way around.
You tell me where the Bible says to reject the truth and worship men as false gods because that is what you are really asking for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 02-01-2013 5:15 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 662 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 109 of 872 (689596)
02-01-2013 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
01-31-2013 12:11 PM


Re: Evidence
Faith writes:
Well, God has to open your eyes to the truth.
It's true that one's eyes have to be open to the truth. Yours, unfortunately, are not - as witnessed by the utterly ridiculous contortions that you go through to try to explain the creation and the flood. You mangle the Bible to "prove" it's true and you make a laughingstock of believers in the process.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 02-01-2013 11:49 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 110 of 872 (689606)
02-01-2013 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
02-01-2013 10:56 AM


Re: Evidence
I have a question. IF God is no respector of persons, why is it that He only opens SOME eyes to "the truth"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 02-01-2013 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 02-01-2013 12:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 662 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 111 of 872 (689609)
02-01-2013 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
02-01-2013 11:49 AM


Re: Evidence
Phat writes:
IF God is no respector of persons, why is it that He only opens SOME eyes to "the truth"?
"Seek and ye shall find." If you actively avoid the truth, even the God of the Bible won't prop your eyes open with toothpicks. Ignoring real evidence in favour of Bible stories is avoidance if anything ever was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 02-01-2013 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 112 of 872 (689619)
02-01-2013 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
02-01-2013 1:10 AM


Re: Should God be slanged or kept to oneself?
Faith writes:
GDR, believers in an inerrant Bible have no problem reconciling the Old Testament God with Jesus, it's UNBELIEVERS who make that distinction. If you are saved, great, but it must be by the skin of your teeth because you deny so much of the testimony of the Bible, which the New Testament treats as God's word in toto, referring to it without distinction as "the scriptures," and Jesus Himself quoted from all the books, and He also said to the disciples on the road to Emmaus that the entire Old Testament ("the scriptures") referred to Himself.
Believers in an inerrant Bible have no problem reconciling the OT to the NT because they simply ignore the massive discrepancies. They also ignore the differences within the OT as I wrote about in this post. Message 1
Here is a quote from Matthew 19:
quote:
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Jesus doesn’t say that God gave this command he says it was Moses. He also says that Moses got it wrong. Your understanding of how the scriptures are to be used is contradictory to what Jesus taught.
Paul says this in Galations 4:
quote:
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law ? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants : one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves ; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free ; she is our mother.
Paul understood that the great truths of the Bible were not necessarily to be understood in a literal sense. Your understanding of how the scriptures are to be used is contradictory to what Paul taught.
If God was in favour of genocide in the OT but in favour of loving your enemy by the time the NT was written then we should have no indication of what His desires are for us today.
Yes Jesus quoted the Hebrew Scriptures and explained what He was doing through those scriptures. Jesus was Jewish and He used the Hebrew scirptures extensively so that His fellow Jews would understand what He was all about. He draws out the scriptures such as we see in Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah in particular in particular to explain His message. He does not talk about the hateful laws in some of the other books such as Leviticus. Yes God inspires people to record their views and histories so that they are available to future generations and mankind is continues down its path of struggling between the love of self and love of others and for all of God’s creation at the expense of the self. So yes all scripture is useful for teaching, correction and righteousness. The Bible is a collection of the wisdom of the ages as God continued to work through the hearts and minds of the Jews, but of course what they wrote was both personally and culturally conditioned. And yes, God still speaks to us through those scriptures.
You talk about my being saved. If you believe that being a Christian is about being saved then you have completely turned the teachings of Christ around by 180 degrees. You have made the Christian faith all about the self, when in fact that we see in Jesus the message that it is all about taking the focus off of the self.
Paul writes this in 1 Cor 4:
quote:
1 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
Paul says that he will be judged by God according to what is on his heart. He is not going to be judged because of what he believes. It isn’t about salvation. It is about changing our hearts to hearts that humbly love kindness and justice, and reflecting that love which is from God into the world.
Faith writes:
And even if you can somehow make yourself believe in bits and pieces of the testimony and throw out the rest, your example to others may not create the same effect but just convince them that if the Bible isn't true in one place there's no reason to trust it where you trust it either. And I'd have to say their view makes sense. Picking and choosing from the Bible is a deadly error.
It's your own spiritual weakness that leads you to divide the Bible to suit yourself, it is not a spiritual strength, and it is a terrible example to others.
I suggest that it is a terrible example to others to agree that God is a God who justifies genocide as well as public stoning for minor offences. It isn’t a matter of picking and choosing. It is a matter of standing back and look at the entire narrative that is the Bible to understand what it is that God has to tell us.
We are not to make an idol out of the Bible. The Bible is not the 4th member of the Trinity. Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible is the word of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 02-01-2013 1:10 AM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 113 of 872 (689620)
02-01-2013 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
01-31-2013 11:21 PM


Re: Play Fair
Faith writes:
Other religions are NOT like the Bible. The Biblie is mostly historical narrative about real people who know the living God, the other religions are mostly teachings given by certain teachers. The miracle stories in the Bible all add up to demonstrating the gift of the Messiah. Miracle stories in other religions have no organized purpose.
Except that other religions ARE like the Bible.
Some other religions are mostly historical narratives about real people who know the living God. Some of them say that the Bible is mostly teachings given by certain teachers. Some other religions have miracle stories that all add up to demonstrating their gifts from their Gods. Some would say that the miracle stories of the Bible have no organized purpose.
...if you want to be fair, anyway.
I don't ignore those other people. You seem to deny their evidence and pretend that it's not the same, or doesn't exist.
I don't know if I'll come back to try to answer your post beyond this.
That's okay, answer only what you feel like answering. You do not owe me anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 11:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 11:55 AM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 114 of 872 (825690)
12-17-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
01-30-2013 8:17 PM


Re: Evidence
Taking my argument that God is more than simply a character in a book back to this topic.
Faith,to Stile writes:
You've been given fair and trustworthy witnesses, it is nothing but stubborn insistence that you be given something personal that keeps you from the very evidence you say you want.
Stile writes:
I have met some "God-witnesses" that are fair and trustworthy. They all seem to have one thing in common, though. None of them try to actively convince other people that God is in fact real. None of them tell other people "you just aren't looking at the evidence!" When someone says this to an honest person, and doesn't show what the evidence is, they are actually not being fair. When they say this, and don't describe how the evidence is convincing, they are not being trustworthy.(...)Those who are fair and trustworthy seem to understand that they cannot convince others, and leave this to God. They are okay with, and sometimes even promote other people not believing in God because it is between "those others and God."
Faith writes:
The rule is simple: Believe. That's exactly what you all refuse to do.
I have been a believer since 1993. Stile does have a point, though. Describe how the evidence is convincing to you. jar seems to think that we all "market" God, so let's assume for a moment he has a point. Describe to me why the God whom you know is worthy of all honor, glory, praise, and respect.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 01-30-2013 8:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 11:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 115 of 872 (825691)
12-17-2017 11:18 AM


GOD God and god Remix
Phat writes:
Cant a guy get to actually believe in a Creator of all seen and unseen Who has time to listen?
jar writes:
Of course they can and have. In fact most of the stories about God regardless of which religion involves a God that interacts with humans. Heracles is a great example of not just a God who had time to listen but for some pillow talk as well. Ganesha is the remover of obstacles. Hermes and Mercury were messengers constantly carrying message between humans and gods. The God of Genesis 2&3 had time to listen and even make clothes.
It's likely the authors of those stories believed very strongly that there were gods who had time to listen.
Explain one more time the difference between GOD, God, and god. Also, do you believe that God, as marketed by Christians, is an improvement on the earlier ideas?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 12:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 116 of 872 (825692)
12-17-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
12-17-2017 11:09 AM


Re: Evidence
Describe to me why the God whom you know is worthy of all honor, glory, praise, and respect.
I've kind of learned at EvC, Phat, not to talk about such things because they get treated like dirt here.
The evidence is the miracles of the Bible, and in fact all the historical accounts in the Bible. That's why they were written, to be evidence of God's reality and character. I've said this many times already and I don't have any more to say. If people refuse to believe the Bible witnesses, or witnesses among us TO the Bible, that's pretty much the end of it as far as I'm able to contribute anything.
I do remember that the mystery writer Dorothy Sayers wrote about her conversion by realizing that King Artaxerxes (the king in the book of Esther) really existed. She knew the history already and when she found him in the Bible she realized the accounts were true. I myself wasn't converted by such things though, I was converted by the Catholic mystics Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross who wrote about their personal experiences of God using scripture for references. God uses various things to draw people to Himself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 11:09 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:16 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 117 of 872 (825693)
12-17-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Stile
02-01-2013 3:02 PM


Re: Play Fair
You're wrong, Stile, other religions are NOT like the Bible and you have said nothing to prove otherwise. You just think it wouldn't be "fair" to think otherwise so you assume similarity where there is none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Stile, posted 02-01-2013 3:02 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Stile, posted 12-19-2017 10:41 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17909
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 118 of 872 (825697)
12-17-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
12-17-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Evidence
quote:
The evidence is the miracles of the Bible, and in fact all the historical accounts in the Bible. That's why they were written, to be evidence of God's reality and character.
And we have explained why it is not good evidence. Indeed, it’s not even as good as it could be, if God we’re behind it. And you have been unable to answer those reasons.
quote:
If people refuse to believe the Bible witnesses, or witnesses among us TO the Bible, that's pretty much the end of it as far as I'm able to contribute anything.
If the evidence is inadequate - and there is no doubt that it is - then it should be an end to it. But you keep insisting that it is good evidence, in defiance of the facts.
quote:
I do remember that the mystery writer Dorothy Sayers wrote about her conversion by realizing that King Artaxerxes (the king in the book of Esther) really existed
Which is quite amusing when in reality there is considerable disagreement over who the King - named Ahasuerus in the Hebrew text - is meant to be, and the Book of Esther is very likely fiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 11:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:19 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 872 (825699)
12-17-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
12-17-2017 12:16 PM


Re: Evidence
Fortunately Dorothy Sayers was a much better judge of things historical than you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:34 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17909
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 120 of 872 (825701)
12-17-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
12-17-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Evidence
quote:
Fortunately Dorothy Sayers was a much better judge of things historical than you
No Faith, coming to an irrational and wrong conclusion is not a sign of good judgement at all. Even you should be able to realise that. Although given that you are known to boast of your own good judgement, perhaps not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:43 PM PaulK has replied

  
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