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Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
NCE writes: And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity. I'm going to assume that you don't believe anybody is for such a thing given your comments. So why'd you bring that up? Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said:
quote: I'm not exactly sure how they want to go about this, because I haven't seen anything explicit, but what I've seen implies what I've said.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
[qs]And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity[qs]
Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said: Yes, you do believe that. That's why I said this:
I am not pegging you on either end of the spectrum. What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity. To which you responded:
I don't think either of those things. Not sure why you bothered to deny thinking that way, only to come back and acknowledge it now. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Not sure why you bothered to deny thinking that way, only to come back and acknowledge it now. They're completely different statements: A state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity. People who come out differently than you are restrictors of opportunity. I don't know how you can see those as the same thing, nor why you're pushing for it. If you want to know what I think then just ask - there's no reason to try to twist my words into a contradiction.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Suppose a bank robber takes the opportunity to rob a bank. Suppose a surgeon takes the opportunity to charge $100,000 for a life-saving operation. What's the difference? Why does the state restrict one opportunity and not the other?
A state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Right, a worker's revolution, how very un-American. Not so much revolution as evolution. Revolution has the disadvantage of leaving a power vacuum leading to things like the French Revolution aftermath and ISIS. Social evolution on the other hand changes power system with adaptations -- the union general strikes, women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, ... very American.
If your country actually wanted more socially conscious policies and practices it would have voted for them, ... We have. FD Roosevelt was the most popular president because of social policies he got enacted. The last on his list was a new bill of rights for further social programs, like health.
... but even obviously beneficial things like good health care ts voted down let alone the sort of state intervention you're talking about. ... And this is an evolving situation. We certainly have better health care under the ACA than before, and there certainly is still work to do, but that's not because people don't want it, it's because rich people/corporations don't want to lose their obscene profits buying votes of corrupt congress members.
I can give you some ideas if you like but you'll need to get your cognitative dissonance under control first. Try me. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Only if (a) your pay is large enough to leave you with the discretionary money (wages above living costs) to afford the stock and (b) if there is stock available to buy (not all companies issue stock). Both of those are true. For you, but not for everyone. Certainly not for anyone working at minimum wage. Certainly not for anyone working for a company that does not issue stock (most small businesses).
Would I be right in assuming you have some investments (IRA, savings, mutual funds, etc)? That gives you future security (that people on minimum wage don't have) and a feeling (satisfaction) that you are getting somewhere in the economy. You just aren't tied to how well the company succeeds the way people that earn a share of the profit in a co-op do. Right. And I don't care. Your privilege is showing. Again, people working minimum wage who don't have those privileges.
So sayeth the willing subservient serf to the smiling king. I know you're full of shit when you have to resort to personal insults.[/qs] So not so much a serf/peasant/laborer, but still a vassal in the feudal hierarchy, happy to be given a position above the lowly worker struggling to live on minimum wage.
Guess you're not a big fan of democracy ... In business? Yeah, not so much. But it really depends. On what? Your place in the feudal hierarchy of the business? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: Try me. Posts crossed, there's a answer in your other thread on this.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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NCE writes: And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity. I'm going to assume that you don't believe anybody is for such a thing given your comments. So why'd you bring that up? Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said:
quote: I'm not exactly sure how they want to go about this, because I haven't seen anything explicit, but what I've seen implies what I've said. Curiously, what I am for is equality of opportunity. Opportunity to education, opportunity for work, that isn't lumbered by institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers. Not just because it is more equitable for people but because there is no guarantee that the white male necessarily represents the best the workforce etc has to offer. Case in point, the epitome of white male privilege, President Pedophile. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Curiously, what I am for is equality of opportunity. Opportunity to education, opportunity for work, that isn't lumbered by institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers. To be clear: Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers? (sorry, there's some punctuation/grammar error there or something) If so, then okay: what is your solution?
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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NCE writes: Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases... If so, then okay: what is your solution? If so, then there is no acceptable solution. By and large, nobody will accept the least bit of inconvenience to right such a wrong, regardless of how egregious. It is perfectly okay, for example, to let people into Harvard in part because somebody's dad and/or grandaddy is an alumnus, or maybe even a donor. But it is not okay to let someone into Harvard, in part because nobody in their family ever went there. Hundreds of years of your family getting the short end because of their race? Too bad. No system of compensation or getting ahead will ever be acceptable. In fact, let's just pile more shit on. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
To be clear: Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers? (sorry, there's some punctuation/grammar error there or something) Yes.
If so, then okay: what is your solution? Tuition free state education. First community college or trade school, followed by higher education for those that want to pursue it. The community college path would mean not needing freshman year at state university. The community colleges would also provide the education needed for technician type occupations. The trade schools would mean a supply of plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. and a career path to solid middle class occupations. Privilege is a bit harder to deal with. It's more of an awareness issue. For instance I went to Duke, and freshman engineering had 3 blacks and two women in the program. I find it extremely difficult to believe that this was due to natural ability. Better education and job opportunities should tend to counter this over time. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Tuition free state education. First community college or trade school, followed by higher education for those that want to pursue it. The community college path would mean not needing freshman year at state university. The community colleges would also provide the education needed for technician type occupations. The trade schools would mean a supply of plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. and a career path to solid middle class occupations. I like the idea of a post-highschool but pre-college institution of learning where students can test the waters of various industries. It seems silly to me for a freshman to spend so many thousands of dollars to go to a college, not knowing what they want to do, and basically going on a test run to see how things go. That's a risky and expensive gamble. Many people find out it's not for them. You don't have to dive right into the deep end to figure that out. Also, many of the people that it is actually for end up spending years exploring the options to figure out what they want to end up studying. There's no reason to do that at the top dollar university (other than they would appreciate getting that money). In principle it sounds like a good idea, but I'm afraid it might be too difficult to get all the different institutions to cooperate. In my experience, the universities would prefer students come take the classes at their schools over accepting transfers of credits from others. I don't see the universities being on board with losing a lot of business to free state schools. On the other hand, with all the online schooling that happening, maybe the whole university model will become outdated and so they'll end up losing the business anyways. Then it doesn't matter.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In principle it sounds like a good idea, but I'm afraid it might be too difficult to get all the different institutions to cooperate. In my experience, the universities would prefer students come take the classes at their schools over accepting transfers of credits from others. I don't see the universities being on board with losing a lot of business to free state schools. Several people I know have used this path. They get an associate degree and then enter state university with advanced placement. I have not seen any problems getting in, particularly as the universities lose students every year and can use these people to refill the ranks.
On the other hand, with all the online schooling that happening, maybe the whole university model will become outdated and so they'll end up losing the business anyways. Then it doesn't matter. This may work well enough for associate degrees and the like, but I hardly think it is capable of providing the hands-on experience needed for many scientists. I've done correspondance school and found it tedious and slow, so I transfered into a residential program (for my 3rd degree). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Several people I know have used this path. They get an associate degree and then enter state university with advanced placement. I have not seen any problems getting in, particularly as the universities lose students every year and can use these people to refill the ranks. Oh, I read "not needing freshman year at state university" as taking some classes but not getting a degree. Transferring individual courses from a college to a university doesn't really work as well as a degree does.
This may work well enough for associate degrees and the like, but I hardly think it is capable of providing the hands-on experience needed for many scientists. You're right there - you're gonna need access to a laboratory.
I've done correspondance school and found it tedious and slow, so I transfered into a residential program (for my 3rd degree). I have a buddy getting on online degree that I was helping study - it's getting more sophisticated. And with more credibility.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I've done correspondance school and found it tedious and slow, so I transfered into a residential program (for my 3rd degree). I have a buddy getting on online degree that I was helping study - it's getting more sophisticated. And with more credibility. Cool, but I still think on-line degrees will be viewed with some suspicion versus degrees from accredited universities, in part because of "paper mill" degrees. And now the issue of net neutrality may be a real bugbear for on-line schools. Privilege rises again. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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