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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 696 (825536)
12-15-2017 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tangle
12-15-2017 4:34 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
There's no point going beyond this because you're not accepting the concept of a miracle as it's defined.
Uh, I'd say you are the one going against the definition. Miracles are inexplicable and you're saying that we don't know it's a miracle until it is explained. But that makes it not a miracle.
That's fine but to have this discussion at all, you have to allow that miracles are possible and that they defy natural laws.
That is part of my position.
A miracle is when when you experience something that defies natural laws. There's no requirement for you to have scientific evidence of it.
You can't really know that a miracle has occurred - for if you can test it then it is following natural laws not defying them. If you think natural laws are being defied because of the results of your tests, then that means you need to rethink the natural laws.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 696 (825537)
12-15-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
12-15-2017 5:04 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Been over for ages, you simply haven't noticed.
If something happens it is not impossible for it to happen. But you still have not provided, and I cannot imagine that there is, some way to test anything that is not natural.
I happen to believe that there have been miracles but at least do not think there is any evidence or support or reason or logic for that belief.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 5:55 PM jar has not replied
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:58 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 93 of 696 (825538)
12-15-2017 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2017 5:10 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
Uh, I'd say you are the one going against the definition. Miracles are inexplicable and you're saying that we don't know it's a miracle until it is explained.
I'm saying exactly the reverse. How on earth can you be confused about that? I'm saying that by definition a miracle is inexplicable. It's the paradox that makes it miraculous.
A miracle is when when you experience something that defies natural laws. There's no requirement for you to have scientific evidence of it.
So maybe it's me. How can we know that something has defied a natural law without testing that the something has defied a natural law?
Or are you simply demoting a miracle to a personal experience?
You can't really know that a miracle has occurred - for if you can test it then it is following natural laws not defying them.
Perhaps this is it. The miracle has to happen in our natural world for us to observe it. Wine turns to blood as it is spoken at by a priest. This is a measurable phenomenom because it exists in our world. But it's also totally impossible, hence miracle. We measure the outcome, we can't measure the mechanism because it's supernatural.
If you think natural laws are being defied because of the results of your tests, then that means you need to rethink the natural laws.
You're just saying that miracles are impossible again.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2017 5:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2017 10:33 AM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 94 of 696 (825539)
12-15-2017 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
12-15-2017 5:19 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
jar writes:
I happen to believe that there have been miracles but at least do not think there is any evidence or support or reason or logic for that belief.
Well said. I would describe my own particular spiritual beliefs the same way. I'll add a detail or two. I have faith. No more is needed or wanted, for faith between me and my God is plentiful provender. I do not yearn for fellow travelers, fortunate because my beliefs make little sense even to me.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 5:19 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 6:32 PM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 95 of 696 (825540)
12-15-2017 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
12-15-2017 5:19 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Jar writes:
If something happens it is not impossible for it to happen.
That's the only definition of a miracle. If something is possible, it can't be a miracle. You're confusing outcomes (natural world), with mechanisms (supernatural).
But you still have not provided, and I cannot imagine that there is, some way to test anything that is not natural.
Wine and blood are natural - can be tested. Wine turning into blood is supernatural - can't be tested.
I happen to believe that there have been miracles but at least do not think there is any evidence or support or reason or logic for that belief.
I happen to believe that there are no such things as miracles. Our beliefs are both irrelevant.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 5:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:02 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 10:58 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 96 of 696 (825541)
12-15-2017 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Percy
12-15-2017 5:55 PM


Faith in what?
I have faith. No more is needed or wanted, for faith between me and my God is plentiful provender.
This is completely baffling to me. Faith in what? What does your faith do for you? Does it give you some kind of strength or hope or promise for the future? What's the point of it? Does your God have any grounding in any kind of reality, or even any kind of religion?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 5:55 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:06 PM Faith has replied
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 12-16-2017 10:28 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 696 (825543)
12-15-2017 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
12-15-2017 5:58 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
Wine and blood are natural - can be tested. Wine turning into blood is supernatural - can't be tested.
I understand that is your assertion but you have not provided any reason to think wine turning into blood is supernatural IF there was an actual instance of wine turning into blood.
Should there be such and instance it is only evidence that wine did turn into blood and not evidence of the supernatural.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2017 3:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 696 (825544)
12-15-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
12-15-2017 6:32 PM


Re: Faith in what?
Faith writes:
Does your God have any grounding in any kind of reality, or even any kind of religion?
There is no evidence of any God having any grounding in any kind of reality.
There is lots of evidence of religions, thousands and thousands and thousands of them; but no evidence of any of them having any grounding in any kind of reality.
Yet billions of people have faith in their religious beliefs. I imagine even you have faith in your religious beliefs.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 6:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 7:38 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 696 (825545)
12-15-2017 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
12-15-2017 7:06 PM


Re: Faith in what?
My God has plenty of grounding in reality through the Biblical accounts of His acts in history.
abe: I don't know what it could possibly mean to "have faith in one's religious beliefs." My faith is in God, in Christ, not in my beliefs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:43 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 696 (825546)
12-15-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
12-15-2017 7:38 PM


Re: Faith in what?
Faith writes:
My God has plenty of grounding in reality through the Biblical accounts of His acts in history.
abe: I don't know what it could possibly mean to "have faith in one's religious beliefs." My faith is in God, in Christ, not in my beliefs.
And I imagine you even believe that.
However the Biblical accounts are both contradictory and mutually exclusive and have no greater weight as evidence than the accounts of the Buddha or Ganesha EXCEPT in your belief in them.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 7:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 8:03 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 101 of 696 (825547)
12-15-2017 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
12-15-2017 7:43 PM


Re: Faith in what?
Do not define my beliefs for me. What I said is the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 8:20 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 102 of 696 (825549)
12-15-2017 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
12-15-2017 8:03 PM


Re: Faith in what?
Faith writes:
Do not define my beliefs for me. What I said is the truth.
You said what you believe to be true. There is no more evidence though that it is true than there is for Buddhism or Taoism or Hinduism or Islam or any other religion.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 8:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:04 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 103 of 696 (825554)
12-16-2017 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
12-15-2017 8:20 PM


Re: Faith in what?
I said what I KNOW to be true. And it's certain that you know NOTHING about the truth of Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 8:20 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 104 of 696 (825563)
12-16-2017 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
12-15-2017 7:02 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Jar writes:
I understand that is your assertion but you have not provided any reason to think wine turning into blood is supernatural IF there was an actual instance of wine turning into blood.
If there was an actual instance of wine turning into blood we'd immediatetly call it fraud or a mistake and dismiss it out of hand because we know that it is impossible for a person to turn wine into blood just by talking at it.
If, however, wine repeatedly changed into blood at the moment it was chanted over by a priest during the religious service - as Catholics claim it does - and we could properly test that it had done so, then it would be a miracle. By definition.
Should there be such and instance it is only evidence that wine did turn into blood and not evidence of the supernatural.
No, it's alchemy. We know that it's impossible to do what has been done. You can't dismiss our knowledge, there is no gap in our knowledge where we can posit a natural cause - not even theoretically.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 6:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 696 (825569)
12-16-2017 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Tangle
12-16-2017 3:05 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
If, however, wine repeatedly changed into blood at the moment it was chanted over by a priest during the religious service - as Catholics claim it does - and we could properly test that it had done so, then it would be a miracle. By definition.
Yes, I understand that is your assertion. But again, you show no evidence that it was a miracle or a supernatural event.
You have repeated several times that there is no known way to test the supernatural.
If wine was turned into blood, whether by incantation or some other means, it simply is evidence that it is possible to turn wine into blood.
A Miracle is defined as a supernatural event, something impossible in the natural world.
If something happens in the natural world then it is not impossible.
That refutes the second part of the definition.
What is missing though is any evidence to show it is a supernatural event.
You might believe it is a supernatural event but there is no evidence to show it is a supernatural event.
All we have at that point is an unexplained event.
Reality trumps even definitions.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2017 3:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2017 8:52 AM jar has replied

  
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