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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 26 of 218 (821438)
10-07-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
10-07-2017 10:28 AM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
RAZD writes:
Hence the comments like "dogs will always be dogs."
I think the Bible uses the word "kind" much as we do - e.g. "What kind of dog is that?" Poodles beget poodles and sheepdogs beget sheepdogs but there's no suggestion that interbreeding is impossible.

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 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 10-07-2017 10:28 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 10-07-2017 1:31 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 31 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2017 9:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 36 of 218 (822230)
10-21-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dredge
10-20-2017 9:06 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Dredge writes:
That is to say, the words, "according to their kinds" suggests a fixity of kinds.
But "fixity of kinds" requires an explanation of what kinds are. What, exactly, is fixed? Poodles beget poodles after their kind and sheepdogs beget sheepdogs after their kind. Dogs are not necessarily a kind. What is fixed?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 87 of 218 (823123)
11-06-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Dredge
11-06-2017 1:25 AM


Dredge writes:
Anyways, Darwin was so out-of-it when he consumed too much hallucinogen, he couldn't remember which country he was in.
It makes no difference what Darwin did or said. The Theory of Evolution does not depend on Darwin. It has been confirmed countless times by countless people. Only ignorant creationists feel a need to personify it in the form of Darwin.

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 Message 85 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2017 1:25 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 218 (824420)
11-28-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Dredge
11-28-2017 3:24 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:
What I mean is, wings are not "modified forelimbs" anymore than Tooth fairies are modified butterflies.
Look at a bat's wing and a human hand.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 140 of 218 (824556)
11-30-2017 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dredge
11-30-2017 4:24 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:
My point is, not only was Nebraska Man fabricated on the basis of one tooth, that tooth was very weathered and thus hard to identify. Junk science built on junk evidence, in other words.
Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man were disproven by the same science that you reject. You're scoffing at the science in one breath and praising it in the next.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 4:24 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 218 (824855)
12-04-2017 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dredge
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


Dredge writes:
In the way of an exercise, could a flying pig be fitted into a nested hierarchy?
You do the exercise: What would the nearest relatives of the flying pig be? What transitional fossils of mammals with six appendages would you expect to find?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2017 6:49 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Dredge, posted 12-04-2017 7:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 159 of 218 (824920)
12-05-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dredge
12-04-2017 7:27 PM


Dredge writes:
All you need to do is invent another branch on the tree - as you could do for any "new" creature (whether living or fossilized).
That isn't how it works. You can't just "invent" a branch. By definition, a branch has to be connected to something. Where would you connect the flying pig? You can't just connect it to the other pigs because the other pigs only have four legs. What branch has four-legged animals with wings?
Dredge writes:
We didn't didn't know there were mammals that grew wings out their ribs....
Bats didn't grow wings out of their ribs. Have you read the thread at all? Their forelimbs adapted into wings while our forelimbs adapted into arms with grasping hands, whales' forelimbs adapted into swimming fins and pigs' forelimbs adapted into legs for walking on all fours. They're all the same forelimbs adapted to different environments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Dredge, posted 12-04-2017 7:27 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 182 of 218 (825349)
12-13-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by CRR
12-13-2017 3:29 AM


Re: Kinds and Nested Hierarchies
CRR writes:
... the Bible obviously contains: Poetry, Parables, Prophecy, Letters, Biography, History, Wisdom, etc.
Presumably your "etc." includes fiction.
CRR writes:
The author’s intention with respect to any book of the Bible is usually quite clear from the style and the content.
The style and content of Genesis 1 and 2 make it quite clear that the authors did not intend to describe nested hierarchies.

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 Message 176 by CRR, posted 12-13-2017 3:29 AM CRR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 198 of 218 (825486)
12-15-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:37 PM


Dredge writes:
Even though their are no fossils or remains found yet for such a creature, you assume it must have existed and fill in the "gap" to the flying pig with a provisional branch until the evidence shows up.
No, that isn't how it works. It's called a "nested hierarchy" for a reason. The fossils we have DO form a nested hierarchy and any new fossils we find DO fit into it. If a flying pig fossil was found, it would NOT fit into the nested hierarchy.
Dredge writes:
Trust me....
Certainly not. You haven't shown even the slightest rudimentary understanding of the topic. Trusting you would be like trusting a three-year-old to fly an Airbus.
Dredge writes:
There exist humans with arms and legs missing - how do you think these people fit into a nested hierarchy?
There's a difference between missing limbs and extra limbs. Do you understand the difference between addition and subtraction? It's easier to lose what you already have than to get something you never had.
Dredge writes:
Forelimbs don't evolve into fins and wings - it's impossible.
You're no judge of what's possible. How do you explain the similarity between a bat's wing and a human hand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:37 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Dredge, posted 12-26-2017 12:22 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 199 of 218 (825487)
12-15-2017 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Dredge
12-14-2017 11:10 PM


Dredge writes:
If we didn't have Bombardier beetles roaming about, no one would believe they ever existed.
Speaking of which, I wonder what nested hierarchy they fit into?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say beetles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 11:10 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 11:25 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 209 by Dredge, posted 12-26-2017 12:28 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 216 of 218 (826263)
12-27-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Dredge
12-26-2017 12:28 AM


Dredge writes:
A bombardier beetle has no evolutionary history (unsurprisingly)....
Sure it does. Who told you that nonsense? You should at least look it up before making a fool of yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Dredge, posted 12-26-2017 12:28 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 217 of 218 (826264)
12-27-2017 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Dredge
12-26-2017 12:22 AM


Dredge writes:
ringo writes:
How do you explain the similarity between a bat's wing and a human hand?
Very easily - a common designer. Notice how very different buildings can have very similar design features.
We're not talking about different buildings. We're talking about the difference between a terrestrial machine and a flying machine. Designers don't use the same frame for a bulldozer and an airplane.
Dredge writes:
Incidentally, it's interesting that evolutionists are quick to point out similarities between certain creatures, but are rather slow when it comes to considering the differences.
Nope. You're wrong again. Evolutionists do talk about the differences. Look at the difference between a bat's wing and a bird's wing and an insect's wing. They have all evolved in different ways from different origins to adapt to the same purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Dredge, posted 12-26-2017 12:22 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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