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Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


(1)
Message 141 of 300 (824130)
11-22-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Percy
11-18-2017 3:33 PM


Source please
Franken admits thrusting his tongue into Tweeden's mouth during a rehearsed kiss
I didn't recall there being any such admission, and re-reading a couple of stories about it, I find no such admission.
Al Franken apologizes after accusation he kissed and groped TV news anchor | US politics | The Guardian
Al Franken Issues Apology After Accusation of Forcible Kissing and Groping - The New York Times
Moose
Added by edit, from the nytimes link:
quote:
Al Franken - "While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women's experiences."
That is not an admission.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 145 of 300 (824282)
11-26-2017 2:03 AM


More Women Accuse Franken Of Groping

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


(1)
Message 149 of 300 (824398)
11-27-2017 9:56 PM


Some current Al Franken related links

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 150 of 300 (824401)
11-28-2017 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Percy
11-27-2017 6:48 PM


Re: Franken: Resign Now
If Franken remembers decades of groping women's butts this poorly, if to him it is such a minor thing that he can't even recall these episodes, he should resign now.
As I've seen it, Franken is pretty much neither admitting nor denying any of the incidents. He certainly is taking pains not to accuse any woman of lying about it, although he did seem to imply that Tweeden was lying ("I didn't remember it that way").
He seems to be not contesting the charges as being true or possibly true, regardless of whether or not he thinks they are true.
He seems to be holding out for an ethics committee hearing (I think rightfully so), rather than getting into a public media battle of "she's lying, she's not lying".
I think the Tweeden matter is a Fox News based smear campaign, one without substance beyond the photo that Franken concedes as being a "seemed funny at the time, but it isn't" joke. Are there some "me toos" joining Tweeden???
Suppose most or all the charges against him are indeed false. If you were him, how would you handle the accusations?
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Left a word out + added a bit more.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Fix typo in Percy's subtitle.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


(3)
Message 158 of 300 (824441)
11-28-2017 10:35 PM


Relevant Bloom County today
Can't embed the cartoon, you have to go there:
Bloom County 2019 by Berkeley Breathed for November 28, 2017 - GoComics
Moose
Added by edit:
Essentially, the cartoon is a young girl conflicted by what Al Franken has done for women vs the current scandal.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit.

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


(2)
Message 159 of 300 (824449)
11-29-2017 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Percy
11-28-2017 8:57 AM


Guilty by statistics
Minnemooseus writes:
Suppose most or all the charges against him are indeed false. If you were him, how would you handle the accusations?
I believe the women.
According to NPR this morning, 98% of workplace harassment claims (not Franken's situation, but close enough to be relevant) are dismissed by judges, who are merely following the law regarding thresholds to go forward to trial. I don't believe 98% of women are lying. I believe hardly any of them are lying. The system is very strongly stacked against women.
Nor does Franken think that the vast majority of women are lying. He has said "Women should be believed". He seems to be sacrificing his own credibility to maintain the credibility of all those women who certainly do have legitimate grievances.
You are convicting Franken by statistics. Kind of like what I believe Attorney General John Mitchell once said - Something along the lines of "They wouldn't be on trial if they weren't guilty."
But there is surely some small fraction of a percentage of women who are less than truthful. Reasons might include an alternative (political?) agenda or maybe just wanting to bring down someone powerful. And I think Franken might well be a prime target for such a thing. Maybe that Tweeden photo opened the floodgates for some women to think "We need to take this guy down, even if it means lying."
I hope Franken finds a way to retain his job with honor, but that is not possible as long as he denies awareness of a longstanding pattern of despicable behavior that no perpetrator without some mental pathology could reasonably ever forget.
Even if all the charges are true, that seems to be a bit harsh. I'm not buying the Tweeden angle, and the other ALLEGED incidents seem to be at worst still pretty minor, especially considering Franken's strong record of working for progressive women's issues (and other things). I think condemning Franken seems to be more of a "shooting yourself in the progressive women's issues foot" sort of thing.
NoNukes suggested that Franken may be receiving some excellent legal advice, and perhaps that explains the strategy he's employing, but whatever the case he appears focused on retaining his position in the Senate and not on forthrightly facing up to what he's done.
Franken probably is receiving excellent legal advice, but I also think that he is also intellectually (and morally) the polar opposite of Donald Trump - He can communicate in a calm rational way.
A strange thing is, Franken seems to be conceding guilt to the charges without admitting guilt. A kind of a "nolo contendere plea". I await the Senate ethics committee hearing. I'm not sure that's an effective route to investigate the situation, but it seems to be the best we have.
Ramoss, in message 155 writes:
We have evidence of dirty tricks being pulled by the Republicans for political purposes in the past, and we have claims of evidence tampering in this particular set of accusations. I don't think that politicians should roll over for dirty tricks. On the other hand, they shouldn't be given a free pass either.
I agree.
My advice? Resign now, make full disclosures including honest descriptions of the kinds of things he would do to women and including all specific instances he can recall, invite women to come forward, make sincere apologies in person, get personally involved in women's rights groups.
Or he could continue as a women's issues progressive Senator that is his substantial reputation. He might also continue being a highly significant opponent to the Trumpian right wing agenda.
Look, I'm a Minnesotan and may very well be biased here. Might others from elsewhere, having a better grasp of the big picture, give opinion of Franken's level of being a good and effective Democratic Senator?
Of all the Democratic Senators, who are the ones that the right wing would most like to bring down/get rid of? Is Franken high on the list? Certainly he is a lot easier to smear that Elizabeth Warren.
In this goofy situation, it sure is hard to write a coherent message. I really fear I have failed, and feel so embarrassed and ashamed about it.
Or something like that.
Moose

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 175 of 300 (824523)
11-29-2017 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
11-29-2017 4:20 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
I know nothing of the details, but serious misbehavior by Keillor seems about as likely as serious misbehavior by Mr. Rogers or Captain Kangaroo. But that could and probably has/is being said about Bill Cosby.
I question the wisdom of Minnesota Public Radio's seemingly knee jerk response of "parting company" with Keillor without some sort of due process investigation first. Does this mean no more Keillor on MPR, not even the old Prairie Home Companion reruns?
What if this had come out while Keillor was still hosting PHC? MPR is going to cancel PHC over what may well be at most minor incidents?
I don't think that blowing minor incidents out of proportion does the "me too" movement any good. Going overboard on minor issues might feed the attitude "Oh, some women is just complaining about something trivial", when there are indeed serious problems.
Treat serious problems seriously, but don't treat more trivial problems equally seriously.
As sort of parallel is the political correctness of not offending the easily offended.
By the way, I repeat my hypothetical question: "What if the recent charges against Al Franken are indeed false. How should Franken best handle that situation?" The same hypothetical question could be asked about Keillor.
Don't duck the question with "I believe the women".
And yes, the Franken and Davis (etc.) era did have ugly content, that Franken does need to make amends for. But I think there needs to be some division between the comedian Franken era and the politician era Franken. Those are two different lives.
And I do think Franken, at least in part, is making amends via his strong Senatorial efforts in progressive women's issues.
One last thought about the alleged state fair gropings. What kind of politician would deliberately do something to offend a voting constituent? Wouldn't that be pretty damn stupid? Would Franken be that stupid? "Hey, don't vote for me, I'm an asshole. And tell your friends not to vote for me."
Moose
Edited by Admin, : Fix spelling of Keillor's name: "Keilor" => "Keillor"

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


(1)
Message 183 of 300 (824669)
12-02-2017 2:11 AM


Do 1 or more ethics committee investigations
I haven't pursued the details, but I heard via public radio, that here in Minnesota there has been an ethics committee (3 Democrats, 3 Republicans) formed to investigate Franken.
Such should also be done in the federal Senate. Grill Franken under oath about all the accusations.
I certainly concede that many serious skeletons have come out of the Franken past closet. I still remain skeptical about the truth and/or seriousness of the accusations from the Franken becoming a Senator era.
I think that there should be some consideration of the timeline of the events. What happened in the comedian Franken era and what happened in the politician Franken era. Where the division happened? I would include the Air America Franken in the politician Franken era.
My image of the moment is that Franken is a "born again" feminist (hums "Amazing Grace"). Did he have a "dirtbag" phase and then a "good guy" phase? Or has the "dirtbag" also crept into the "good guy" phase. If indeed serious "dirtbbag" incidents have crept into the "good guy" phase, then we have a serious hypocrisy event.
Franken has been a strong supporter in progressive feminist issues (BTW, also veteran's issues). The bottom line question is, is the Senator good he has done enough to make his past forgivable?
Republicans Corker and Flake are quitting Congress because they don't like the political nature of the Trump era. I think they should stay on and fight the political nature of the Trump era. Likewise, I would like to still have Franken as part of that fight.
Both Franken and Roy Moore have substantial transgressions against women in their pasts. I ask the question, what have they done for or against women in the recent present? A "what have you done for me lately?" thing.
What I hold against Moore most of all, is that he has TWICE been removed from the Alabama Supreme Court for legal misbehavior.
Do the ethics committees thing. Do it hard and thorough. This is what Franken asked for when the whole situation came to light. We need something better than just trial via the media.
Moose

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 195 of 300 (825054)
12-06-2017 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
12-06-2017 11:15 AM


Ethics Committee trial now
I think that the situation is best served by a formal, organized, and rigorous examination of the charges, rather than chaotic trial by the media.
Also, a footnote to something in my message 175:
Minnemooseus writes:
One last thought about the alleged state fair gropings. What kind of politician would deliberately do something to offend a voting constituent? Wouldn't that be pretty damn stupid? Would Franken be that stupid? "Hey, don't vote for me, I'm an asshole. And tell your friends not to vote for me."
Something that occurred to me after I posted the above.
At the state fair strikes me as an outstandingly poor location choice for misbehavior. A very public place, crowds of people, and lots of cameras. And Franken would be getting a lot of attention. Imagine the number of photos that were probably taken of Franken, both posed and otherwise. Seems like a high probability that some photo could catch Franken blatantly in the act if misbehavior had happened.
Yes, there certainly seems to be many legitimate charges against Franken. But how many are not legitimate, or maybe grey area legitimate.
Bring on the formal trial.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : The "message 175" thing got lost somehow.

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 202 of 300 (825093)
12-07-2017 8:58 PM


Just a couple of links
A lose-lose situation
BREAKING: Franken Resigns In Emotional Speech, Denies Some Allegations - TPM – Talking Points Memo
Too busy to post a real message right now.
Moose
Added Dec 8 etc, 2017:
The #MeToo campaign has swept Capitol Hill. Are there more resignations to come?
Seth Meyers on Al Franken's Resignation and Donald Trump Jr.'s Russia Investigation Testimony - Little Green Footballs
A terribly backwards take on the Franken resignation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...86-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html - By Garrison Keillor, dated Nov. 28
And some Garrison Keillor links:
Garrison Keillor Accused Of 'Inappropriate Behavior,' Minnesota Public Radio Says : The Two-Way : NPR
http://www.startribune.com/...improper-behavior/460802703/#1
Page Unavailable - ABC News
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...llor-allegations-stand-out
Back to Franken (added 12-11-17):
Al Franken shouldn’t resign, says former Minnesota Republican Gov. Arne Carlson – Twin Cities
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added Dec 8, 2017
Edited by Minnemooseus, : More.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Again.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : More links added.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Tweak.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added another link.

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 207 of 300 (825157)
12-09-2017 1:49 AM


Why no ethics committee hearing for Franken
I was hoping that calling for an ethics committee hearing was going to be Al's message on this past Thursday, and not a resignation.
As best I know, Al was the only one to have called for such a hearing. Who is being served by such not having happened?
There will be a separate message from me later, about the resignation itself.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 218 of 300 (825454)
12-15-2017 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Minnemooseus
12-09-2017 1:49 AM


Re: Why no ethics committee hearing for Franken
Someday I'll get up the gung-ho to do my grand message, but not now.
Minnemooseus writes:
I was hoping that calling for an ethics committee hearing was going to be Al's message on this past Thursday, and not a resignation.
As best I know, Al was the only one to have called for such a hearing. Who is being served by such not having happened?
Nobody responded to my message.
While they are not really being served by the lack of an ethics committee hearing, I do thing the the metoo movement is being protected by such. And it seems that the Franken resignation (AFAIK promised but still not done) is party to that protection.
What I suspect would come out of an ethics committee hearing, is that some of those "women should be believed" would be exposed as "women whose truth should be doubted".
I find some sort of irony in that it was the Tweedon photo and story that launched this situation. A photo and story that I find to be highly suspect (aka likely largely bullshit). And the metooers followed up on that.
I think that when that photo came out, Franken was immediately branded as "convicted pervert" by many. Then a sort of "pile on the pervert" happened. Maybe some "lying for moral justice"???
Moose

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 228 of 300 (825561)
12-16-2017 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Percy
12-15-2017 2:38 PM


Wish we had some women around here to have their input
Hopefully more response to your message later (gave it a (+)), but for now I bemoan the lack of female input in this topic.
Alas, I can only think of 5 female members that have been posters in this forum - Faith, the dearly departed Asgara, Purpledawn (who I recall being a military veteran), Schraffinator, and Roxrkool. 4 of 5 are long inactive here.
Moose

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 Message 232 by Rrhain, posted 12-16-2017 4:45 AM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 229 of 300 (825562)
12-16-2017 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Rrhain
11-29-2017 4:57 AM


Kind of a moderator message
The message this is a response to was close to getting a Post of the Month nomination from me.
But the most of the following chain of messages strike me more along the lines of less than rational nagging. At the minimum, I think you could have gone about it in a considerably friendlier manner.
Don't begin to think that I'm not on your side in this topic. I doubt that anyone of this forum is more bummed by what has happened to Franken.
Or something like that.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Wording tweak.

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 236 of 300 (825669)
12-17-2017 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Rrhain
12-16-2017 4:45 AM


Re: Wish we had some women around here to have their input
Minnemooseus writes:
quote:
I bemoan the lack of female input in this topic.
I see...sexual assault only counts when a man assaults a woman. Only a female victim of sexual assault can understand what it means to be assaulted.
First of all, thanks Jah that your valuable point seems to have been resolved to a conclusion.
In the context of this topic and in the context of the wider topic, bad treatment (including sexual assault) to an individual by another individual has indeed been very largely an woman assaulted by a man thing. And as best I can tell, we have damn few women participating in evcforum.net.
Moose

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