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Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 191 of 300 (825019)
12-06-2017 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
12-06-2017 11:15 AM


Seventh Time, Percy
How many times do you need to be asked before you swallow your pride and answer?
It happened to me, Percy. Do you believe me?
Was I sexually assaulted?
And if Franken must resign, why are you still here? Your own actions here on this board condoning homophobia are just as horrendous, to the point of you actually allowing one of the prime instigators to stay simply because he apologized. Is harassment of gay people not as bad?
Your harassment of those who stood up included me, Percy. I accuse you. And you've never apologized for it.
Do you believe me?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 11:15 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 12-06-2017 11:56 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 203 of 300 (825099)
12-08-2017 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Percy
12-06-2017 4:09 PM


Eighth Time, Percy
How many times do you need to be asked before you swallow your pride and answer?
It happened to me, Percy. Do you believe me?
Was I sexually assaulted?
And if Franken must resign, why are you still here? Your own actions here on this board condoning homophobia are just as horrendous, to the point of you actually allowing one of the prime instigators to stay simply because he apologized. Is harassment of gay people not as bad?
Your harassment of those who stood up included me, Percy. I accuse you. And you've never apologized for it.
Do you believe me?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 4:09 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 204 of 300 (825102)
12-08-2017 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Percy
12-07-2017 12:23 AM


Ninth Time, Percy
Percy responds to Phat:
quote:
If you click on Rrhain posts only and read all his posts in this thread you’ll see he has two topics, neither having to do with the topic of this thread (one is a moderation issue from 2008).
To use your words:
That's not true.
Seems like we have to repeat the process just like when you neglected to read what was happening on your own board. This seems to be a habit with you, Percy: You can't take any criticism of your actions, to the point that you will lie about things rather than simply do your job.
My first post on this thread, Message 36, was in response to Minnemooseus' post. We were giving the latest details on the 2008 election.
This continued on with:
Message 41 to Granny Magda saying that the length of the recount process hadn't destroyed Minnesota like the Republicans were claiming would happen with the Florida recount, Message 43 to RAZD giving the latest recount numbers.
Message 45 to RAZD discussing the NORC review of the Florida recount and the election calendar with regard to the President and the Congress.
Message 47 to Coyote referring to Franken as a "clown" and the importance of Congress actually taking Presidential offenses seriously.
Message 49 to Coyote's attempt to run away from his own argument (wherein I repeated his own words back to him, "Do you have anything constructive to pass on to us or is that all you've got?")
Message 52 to Coyote where he once again runs away (he claims he doesn't come to this site for "liberal talking points" and yet decides to enter a thread devoted to a liberal running for the Senate only to become shocked, SHOCKED that someone might espouse liberal philosophy in his general direction.)
Message 55 to Wounded King confirming that the recount was over and the Coleman lawsuit was beginning.
Message 160 where I asked you to be more specific about what you meant when you said, "I believe the women." It is where I gave details about something that happened to me which is nearly identical to the scenario that Franken has been accused of. You failed to respond.
Message 169 where I noticed that you failed to respond and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.
Message 170 to Phat where I said that yes, men are pigs, that this is not surprising to learn, and that I can only hope that this current moment won't be lost.
Message 171 where I once again notice that you haven't responded and asked you to respond. I asked you to think about your response regarding Keillor and why you can't apply that reasoning to Franken. You failed to respond.
Message 172 where I once again notice that you haven't responded but instead started engaging in hypocrisy where you demand Franken's immediate resignation while trying to maintain your own innocence regarding any similar actions you may have done that could come back to haunt you. I pointed out that those actions you're so worried about aren't "accidental," to use your words, but were actual and pervasive when you allowed rampant homophobia to run through your board, banned everybody who was standing up against it, and reminded you that you still haven't apologized (I didn't think I needed to point out that Franken has apologized, but I guess I do since you don't seem to understand how this is relevant.) I asked you to live up to your own standard of "Integrity, honesty, principle, virtue, truth, decency, goodness, virtue [sic], generosity, kindness, character." If you feel that Franken needs to go due to his actions, why are you still here? You failed to respond.
Message 182 where I once again notice that you haven't responded, reminded you of the scenario that happened to me, and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.
Message 184 where I once again notice that you haven't responded, reminded you of the scenario that happened to me, and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.
Message 191 where I once again notice that you haven't responded, reminded you of the scenario that happened to me, and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.
Thus, your claim that I "have two topics" is trivially shown to be false. I have quite a number of topics. Indeed, the most recent posts have all been focused on a single one, but that is primarily because you keep refusing to respond to direct questions. This could have been easily handled if you had simply bothered to respond.
But just like last time, you ignored it and here we are.
quote:
Combined with the combative tone I thought it best not to respond.
No, you thought it best not to respond because you would be caught in your own hypocrisy. The only reason it has become more and more intense in your direction is your transparent avoidance. This is all about your sanctimonious demands for Franken to resign, hiding behind a refrain of "I believe the women," without explaining what it is you mean by that statement given that you have another example staring you in the face.
As I said in that very first post to you, "So is it possible that things might be more complicated?" That you claim discussing the specifics of what Franken did and what it means is off-topic shows just how far down the rabbit hole of your own hypocrisy you have fallen.
But I'm willing to let your own actions go if you simply answer the one question that started it all:
It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted, Percy?
If I wasn't, then by what justification do you call for Franken to resign?
This gets to continue and stop being about your pathetic attempts to avoid responsibility for your actions as soon as you engage and defend your own argument:
When you say, "I believe the women," what does that mean? It happened to me, Percy. Was I sexually assaulted? I have often said (including here...including in my original post to you that started this mess) that intent is not magic. Just because you don't mean to do something doesn't mean it didn't happen or that you aren't responsible for the damage that was done.
But it also goes the other way: Reaction isn't magic, either. Just because you have been wronged doesn't mean the person who did the wrong is the worst thing in the world. We can believe both people's sides of an argument and use that to determine how we respond.
Can't we?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Percy, posted 12-07-2017 12:23 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 205 of 300 (825103)
12-08-2017 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
12-07-2017 2:52 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to ringo:
quote:
quote:
So you can "do right" by your daughter by getting rid of the guy she wants to vote for?
Yes, ringo. That is exactly what I am saying.
So the same question to you as to Percy:
It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted?
Might the situation be a bit more complicated? Are you confident in substituting your opinion about "doing right" by your daughter for your daughter's?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2017 2:52 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2017 2:11 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 209 of 300 (825315)
12-12-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by NoNukes
12-09-2017 2:11 AM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Have you not been reading the thread? You responded to ringo:
quote:
quote:
So you can "do right" by your daughter by getting rid of the guy she wants to vote for?
Yes, ringo. That is exactly what I am saying.
So I was referring back to my own experience that I detailed in Message 160:
Let me tell of an incident that happened to me. I was in a play, Cabaret, playing Cliff. As you might know from the show, Cliff and Sally have a kiss. So you rehearse the kiss.
And then, during one performance, that kiss came with something extra. She stuck her tongue in my mouth. That was decidedly *not* what we rehearsed.
I confronted her about it after the performance and she admitted that she thought something was off in the scene. When I told her that it's because she put her tongue in my mouth, she was mortified. She didn't realize that she had done it.
So here's the question: Did she sexually harass/assault me? The specifics are pretty close to the incident that happened with Franken. So is what happened to me the same thing?
What if I said that I felt violated? What if I said that didn't feel comfortable explaining just how much I felt violated and only now do I feel OK with it to be able to relate my story?
What if I said that it wasn't a big deal? That I understand that she was acting? She was getting into the scene and momentarily forgot herself?
So was I sexually assaulted? I routinely say that intent is not magic (I even said it in that post.) That she didn't mean to do it doesn't mean she didn't do it and she needs to live with the consequences of her actions. But by the same token, my reaction to it doesn't get to magically define it, either. We need to pay attention to intent and reaction, but they aren't the sole factors. Things are complicated.
So if this happened to your daughter and she told you it was no big deal, are you going to substitute your judgement for hers? Remember, Tweeden didn't want Franken to resign or be removed from office.
Perhaps things are complicated.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2017 2:11 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2017 10:34 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 213 of 300 (825431)
12-14-2017 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Percy
12-12-2017 6:50 PM


Tenth Time, Percy
It's very interesting to see your treatment of Faith and yet you cannot understand when you are behaving exactly like her:
Message 1268 (The Tension of Faith):
Uh-oh, you're back to one-line responses again, never a good sign for you. One more time, you're not God. You don't make things so just by declaring them so.
If you want to show I don't "understand anything at all" then you're going to have to show it through discussion. You're going to have to produce meaningful responses to the evidence that proves you have a hate-filled theology that combines with error-filled contradictory claims. My Message 1258 is still there if you can somehow find the wits to come up with more than a moronic one-line response.
So, let's take a look at your response:
That’s not true. If you click on Rrhain posts only and read all his posts in this thread you’ll see he has two topics, neither having to do with the topic of this thread (one is a moderation issue from 2008). Combined with the combative tone I thought it best not to respond.
So three lines. But that's never a good sign to someone who has been avoiding the issue. One more time, integrity requires defending your actions and arguments. You don't get to just ignore things and think nobody notices.
If you want to show that I am "combative", then you're going to have to show it through discussion. You're going to have to produce meaningful responses to the evidence that proves you have a hypocritical philosophy that combines with your mendacious actions. My message is still there if you can somehow find the wits to come up with more than a moronic non-response.
It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted, Percy?
If I wasn't, then by what justification do you call for Franken to resign?
This gets to continue and stop being about your pathetic attempts to avoid responsibility for your actions as soon as you engage and defend your own argument:
When you say, "I believe the women," what does that mean? It happened to me, Percy. Was I sexually assaulted?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Percy, posted 12-12-2017 6:50 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 214 of 300 (825438)
12-14-2017 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by NoNukes
12-12-2017 10:34 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:
This hypothetical and your view of what happened to you does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases. All of the women involved in the public cases under discussion say that it happened and that it was a big deal.
And I don't recall saying whether or not I thought it was a big deal. In fact, I made a point to ask if the argument changes based upon my reaction. You remembered to read the post before responding to it, didn't you? Since you seem to have missed it, here it is again:
Let me tell of an incident that happened to me. I was in a play, Cabaret, playing Cliff. As you might know from the show, Cliff and Sally have a kiss. So you rehearse the kiss.
And then, during one performance, that kiss came with something extra. She stuck her tongue in my mouth. That was decidedly *not* what we rehearsed.
I confronted her about it after the performance and she admitted that she thought something was off in the scene. When I told her that it's because she put her tongue in my mouth, she was mortified. She didn't realize that she had done it.
So here's the question: Did she sexually harass/assault me? The specifics are pretty close to the incident that happened with Franken. So is what happened to me the same thing?
What if I said that I felt violated? What if I said that didn't feel comfortable explaining just how much I felt violated and only now do I feel OK with it to be able to relate my story?
What if I said that it wasn't a big deal? That I understand that she was acting? She was getting into the scene and momentarily forgot herself?
I've highlighted the appropriate section. Did you miss it?
Oh, and by the way: What happened to Tweeden is *EXACTLY* what happened to me: My scene partner stuck her tongue in my mouth without my consent.
So was I sexually assaulted? Why is this question so difficult for everybody to answer? There was no investigation of Franken and here you are certain that you don't want him in office. So clearly you found it easy to answer the question of whether or not these women were sexually assaulted. Because if he didn't sexually assault them, why the call for him to resign?
Why is it so difficult to answer it with regard to me? Is it because you don't have the luxury of being some random yahoo who doesn't have to face any of the parties involved? It's easy to pontificate when you're well-removed from the scenario, isn't it? Not that you don't have a right to your opinion, of course, but rather that things become difficult when there's a real person standing in front of you connected to your opinion.
quote:
With regards to the cases involving minors, I don't care whether the women are okay with it or not.
Minors? When did Franken get accused by a minor? Are you confusing Moore for Franken?
quote:
In addition, Franken appears to be involved in a series of similar incidents rather than a single incident that can be explained away as you do your own incident.
Really? When you read my mind, is it like tuning in a radio station where you only hear me or is it like being at a cocktail party where you hear everybody's thoughts and you have to strain to pay attention to mine?
Sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat, I have had the gamut of sexual impropriety put upon me from being peeped to being groped to being raped. All by women, I might point out. But let's turn the tables and talk about things that I have done.
In the last play I was in, the blocking was for me to bring out another actor as if she were a mannequin. That meant her stiffening her body and me turning her sideways, parallel to the floor to bring her on. One arm was over her legs and the other was around her torso. On more than one occasion, I realized as I was carrying her out that the hand around her torso was also on her breast. And not just casually touching but holding on hard. And when I did put her down, the hand around her legs would slide up and graze her ass as I pulled away.
Same show, at one point I had to come up behind my scene partner, wrapping my cloak around her at the neck, my head right against hers as I menacingly talked in her ear. On more than one occasion, I realized that my crotch was pressed up right against her ass.
Did I sexually assault these women? Was I simply trying to make sure I didn't drop the woman and was paying attention more to her center of gravity than where my hand was? Was her arm pressed against mine to help us maintain balance and thus was a bit trapped between her arm and her body with no real way to get out except by that path (since I was about a foot taller than her to begin with)? Was I simply "getting into the scene" and paying more attention to not choking her with my arm or the cape than where my crotch was?
The simple fact of the matter is that I grabbed one woman's breast and grazed her ass and I shoved my crotch into the ass of another.
Did I sexually assault them? My intention is not magic. It doesn't make what I did not happen and doesn't alter their reactions to it.
So did I sexually assault these women? Neither one mentioned it to me. I'll leave it to you to ponder whether or not I mentioned it to them...since you seem to be able to read my mind, perhaps you can tell me.
And interestingly, will it be easier for you to answer that question than to answer the question as to whether or not I was assaulted?
quote:
Since only you and one other woman is involved
See, this is what you get for pretending that you can read my mind. I have a whole slew of examples to give you.
quote:
and that woman is not trying to hold a position of responsibility in government
Not that you would know.
Besides, why does that have any bearing on the case? Either I was sexually assaulted or I wasn't. Why is this question so difficult to answer.
If Franken didn't sexually assault these women, why did people demand him to resign...and did so when the only one we knew about was Tweeden?
quote:
I'm satisfied with whatever handling of the incident you did.
Why? Do you even know what that was? I only told you that I talked to her about it and that she apologized. I didn't say one word about what happened next.
Because that requires an answer to the question that nobody seems to have the balls to give:
Was I sexually assaulted?
Look, I get it: Nobody wants to run the risk of saying, "No, you weren't," and having me jump all over them for "not believing me." Let me assure you that I won't. I've made my peace with it. I will ask you to explain why.
Nobody wants to say, "No, you weren't," and then have me question why the double standard. That, however, is the risk for that is the point: If what happened to me wasn't sexual assault, why is it with regard to Franken? Now, I can come up with an idea as to the difference, but I'm not the one digging his heels in and refusing to engage. I haven't said whether or not I think Franken should have resigned. But those who do think he should have need to explain themselves as to why.
It happened to me.
Was I sexually assaulted?
quote:
Similarly, I don't expect to see Al Franken, or Conyers, or Moore arrested. But I don't want those folks in Congress.
Did you just equate these three? Are you seriously saying that what Franken did is the same as what Moore did?
We're back to my original question: When you say you "believe the women," what does that mean? Why is this so hard to answer? Is it really impossible to simultaneously believe both Franken's accusers and Franken?
And that, as I originally said, the situation is complicated?
quote:
Your mileage may vary.
I know what my mileage is, not that you would know for I haven't said what it is.
I'm asking you to justify your mileage. And that begins by answering the exceedingly simple question I have had to ask over a dozen times in this one thread but which nobody wants to answer:
It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted?
When you say you "believe the women," what does that mean?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2017 10:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 12-14-2017 10:46 PM Rrhain has replied
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2017 1:03 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 216 of 300 (825451)
12-15-2017 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
12-14-2017 10:46 PM


Re: Assault and Pepper Spray
Phat responds to me:
quote:
When someone says that they believe the women, they are saying that if the women perceived the incident as sexual than it was in fact sexual.
Yes, but what does that mean? Reaction is magic? If intent isn't magic, why would inference be?
In my own case, there is no question about what happened. There is no question that it was sexual. It wasn't like she was trying to lick the inside of my mouth so that she could taste me. We weren't "baby birding." It was a sexual scene and we were presenting a sexual act.
Was I sexually *assaulted*?
quote:
Had Franken challenged the women rather than publically apologizing to anyone and everyone, it may have turned out differently.
Well, given the current climate, it seems that if he hadn't, he'd still have his job. After all, it's only the people who have admitted it who have been punished.
That said, he has contradicted some of the accusers. This goes back to my question: Was I sexually assaulted? Does it all depend upon my reaction?
Note, this doesn't change how I *feel* about what happened but surely we aren't saying that Franken *is* a sexual predator simply because somebody *feels* it to be so, are we?
quote:
Note that you confronted your antagonist immediately after the play.
Why does that matter? After all, isn't one of the things we point out that the women told other people about what happened at the time even if they didn't confront the person who did it? Why does my feeling of confidence in talking to the person who did this change whether or not I was assaulted? It may change how I feel about it, but it doesn't change what happened, does it?
quote:
In Franken's case, however, the incident was unknown to him until now. Your assailant claimed that she had no idea that she had assaulted you. He likely felt the same way. Of course, i am speculating, here...I have no insight into the truth of the matter.
That's what he has said. That's why he has denied some of his accusers while acknowledging others. Do we not believe him, too?
One of the accusers says that when she went to have her picture taken with him, he reached around her (as you do when taking a picture) and grabbed her breast. She then says that, "He knew what he was doing."
He denies that he grabbed her breast deliberately.
Is it not possible to simultaneously believe both the accusers and Franken? That the situation is complicated?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 12-14-2017 10:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 12-15-2017 1:04 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 219 of 300 (825459)
12-15-2017 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
12-15-2017 1:04 AM


Re: Assault and Pepper Spray
Phat, you still haven't answered the question:
Was I sexually assaulted?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 12-15-2017 1:04 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 12-15-2017 5:17 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 11:40 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 225 of 300 (825557)
12-16-2017 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
12-15-2017 5:17 AM


Re: Assault and Pepper Spray
Phat responds to me:
quote:
given that it was an aggressive move and that it was a sexual move, yes.
OK, so what happens next? If I say I felt violated, what happens to her? If I say that it was just an accident, that I completely understand that she was just "getting into the scene" and momentarily forgot herself, what then?
Is it possible that both things might be true at the same time? What if I say that I understand that it was an accident but that I still feel violated?
This is the problem with the phrase, "I believe the women." That doesn't actually tell us anything. Yeah, we can believe her that it happened (which in and of itself is a milestone) and that she feels the way that she does.
But that doesn't tell us how we should treat the other person. Should she have been summarily fired from the production if I had made a complaint? Should she no longer be cast? What if she went on to work with kids? Does this have any bearing? Should she run for office, would this be a disqualifying act?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 12-15-2017 5:17 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 226 of 300 (825559)
12-16-2017 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by ringo
12-15-2017 11:40 AM


Re: Assault and Pepper Spray
ringo responds to me:
quote:
When a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
What's that have to do with anything? We're trying to determine if the tree fell down or was chopped down.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 11:04 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 227 of 300 (825560)
12-16-2017 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes
12-15-2017 1:03 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:
You are one of the two parties involved. So yes, both your impression and her impression are relevant. Despite your claim not to have expressed your opinion, you appear to have accepted her explanation.
Have I? I've had a lot of stage kisses...that specific one is the one that stands out most in my mind.
Besides, what does that have to do with anything? Intent is not magic. Just because she didn't mean to do it doesn't mean it didn't happen. As you just said, my impression is relevant as well as hers. So can't both be true?
Can't the women who feel they were sexually assaulted by Franken be true *and* Franken's claim of not actually trying to assault them both be true? We're talking about whether or not he should resign for sexual assault. So the only criterion is whether or not the constituent says they feel violated? Does that mean anytime anyone says they feel violated, that's enough?
And again, shouldn't Franken's remorse mean anything? Is there no room for contrition and reform?
quote:
I'll also add, that even if she kissed you without your prior consent or without asking, it does matter whether or not you were okay with it after the fact. At least as far as sexual assault is concerned.
From a legal standpoint, perhaps, but this isn't a legal case. It's one of ethics. Should Franken resign for this? Is it truly impossible to conceive that the women do feel violated but that Franken didn't actually try to do so? Again, that doesn't change what happened. But can't both people's opinion of it be true?
To my example, what should have happened to her? Should she have been dismissed? Should she no longer be cast in anything in the future?
quote:
I have formed my option about Franken and your story does nothing to persuade me otherwise. It does not even introduce any doubt.
I'm not surprised.
I'm a man and the perpetrator was a woman, after all. And it's *me* you're dealing with. And you don't actually care about this event. So of course you're not going to consider why the exact same thing happening to me might have some bearing about how you are reacting to Franken.
quote:
You tell me.
Why? You didn't wait for any investigation into Franken before coming to a conclusion. Why the sudden need for more information in my case?
quote:
If you aren't going to give me your side of the story, then you haven't come close to presenting the same pictures that we have of Moore's and Franken's accusers.
So when Tweeden said she didn't think Franken should resign, doesn't that matter?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2017 1:03 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by NoNukes, posted 12-20-2017 4:44 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 230 of 300 (825564)
12-16-2017 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Percy
12-15-2017 2:38 PM


Eleventh Time, Percy
Percy writes:
quote:
Yeah, there's such an upside to coming forward with accusations of sexual harassment. I can't believe all women don't do it. Why can't everyone understand this and just ignore the obviously spurious charges against Franken and Trump and Moore and Weinstein and all the rest?
As the Duke Lacrosse case tells us, it does happen.
And it even happened with Franken. Right after Tweeden, another accusation came against Franken by Melanie Morgan claiming that he was stalking her.
But it turns out that what happened was that they were both on Real Time with Bill Maher. She is a conservative commentator (and that's putting it *mildly*...she accused George Soros of aiding and abetting the Nazis when they invaded Hungary when he was 13 "to advance his career" which caused the manager of the radio station to interrupt her program to deny her claims; and that New York Times editor Bill Keller should be tried for treason and that she "would have no problem with him being sent to the gas chamber"...but hey, Maher was never one for having any sanity in his choice of guests) and made some false statements about the economy on air. He then tried to follow up with her afterward, talking to the producers of RTwBM for her contact information.
So let me get this straight...you go on national television with the author of Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them and The Truth with Jokes and make false statements and you are shocked, SHOCKED that he has an attention span longer than the closing credits and wants to follow up? And you're someone who regularly makes outrageous and false claims about liberals you don't like?
Yeah, there's a reason that we don't really hear about her anymore.
Let's not forget that Roger Stone knew about the accusations against Franken before they were actually made and that Tweeden is a conservative commentator and is pals with Hannity.
And many of the accusers are anonymous.
There is a lot of political stink around some (not all) of the accusations against Franken, one brazenly so, that we need to be careful.
This is why the "zero tolerance" attitude is so dangerous: All it takes is one bad instance to completely destroy any progress that might get made. The Duke case pretty much ended any real examination of sexual assault on campus. The Keillor case is also not helping: MPR is being very cagey about what happened, providing no details at all, not even to Keillor.
It reminds me of when I was accused of sexual harassment at work: An anonymous person made a submission to HR concerning me and some comments I made...but HR didn't tell me what or when. But it now meant that I had an accusation on my record and with absolutely no details, there was no way for me to know what I did and thus try to change my behaviour in order to never let it happen again. And this was at a time where the company was being acquired by another so my job was now suddenly on the line, all because an anonymous person made an accusation with no way to determine what happened and no way for me to respond.
So yeah, it happens. It happened to me.
We're back to the questions you refuse to answer, Percy:
When you say you "believe the women," what is it you believe? What does that mean?
quote:
I know that last must seem contradictory given my calls for Franken's resignation right from the first, but that was when I truly believed that he knew what he had done. Now I'm not so sure. The human mind is a strange and complex thing, and though deep in my heart I believe the women, Franken does seem to genuinely believe they are mistaken.
Yea! We're getting somewhere!
Can't they both be true? Can't the women believe that they were violated and can't Franken also not have done anything deliberately to do so? That doesn't alter the fact that his hands may have landed where they shouldn't have.
And yes, it is contradictory to what you were saying before. This is why "zero tolerance" is such a poor policy: You end up jumping the gun and being incapable of handling nuance.
quote:
Of course, since I believe the women I think he's lucky to have avoided the Ethics Committee, believing it would have come out very badly for him.
And now we're back to the other question you have avoided:
It happened to me, Percy. Was I sexually assaulted?
Because if I wasn't, might that not also be the result from an investigation into Franken? If we investigated and found that what happened was that Franken put his hand around the waist of someone taking a picture with him (like you do) and did the "shooka-shooka" that you do in an upbeat interaction, much like a handshake, but that he was going so fast, having just done his 100th picture of the night, he wasn't paying attention too closely and accidentally grabbed the wrong place.
Is that enough to say he should resign? Note, it doesn't change anything about what happened or how the women feel about what happened. You can still "believe the women," whatever that means.
But just because you believe them, does that mean he should resign?
quote:
Still, I've stated that I liked Franken, and I still like Franken, and were I a Minnesota resident I would vote for him for Senator again, but only after he'd risen before microphones and stated, "I did it, I regret it, and I apologize, both for my actions and for my later denials."
Even for things he didn't do? Because he did all of that for some of the accusers. Is he supposed to take responsibility for any random person who accuses him no matter what?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 2:38 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 231 of 300 (825565)
12-16-2017 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Minnemooseus
12-16-2017 2:31 AM


Re: Kind of a moderator message
Minnemooseus responds to me:
quote:
But the most of the following chain of messages strike me more along the lines of less than rational nagging. At the minimum, I think you could have gone about it in a considerably friendlier manner.
Right...because Percy's ignoring of a simple question that will show he is engaging with his argument and explaining his reasoning is "friendly."
Remember, Moose, you were part of the problem when the homophobia was raging on the board. *YOU* were the one who suspended me for pointing out the inappropriate treatment you and the other admins were taking against Dan Carroll and berberry. You then lied about why I was suspended. So thank you for at least understanding the point I'm trying to make with regard to Franken, but your opinion about "less than rational nagging" regarding Percy is, to put it "in a considerably friendlier manner," disingenuous at best and you will understand if I consider your admonition to be not worth the photons it was written with.
Once again, you have entered into a situation and ignored the person causing the trouble in order to attack the person pointing it out.
I notice you didn't answer the question that Percy refuses to answer:
Was I sexually assaulted?
When we say, "I believe the women," what does that mean?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-16-2017 2:31 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 232 of 300 (825566)
12-16-2017 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Minnemooseus
12-16-2017 2:20 AM


Re: Wish we had some women around here to have their input
Minnemooseus writes:
quote:
I bemoan the lack of female input in this topic.
I see...sexual assault only counts when a man assaults a woman. Only a female victim of sexual assault can understand what it means to be assaulted.
What about me, Moose? It happened to me. Don't I have something to say about it? I've had the entire gamut of sexual crimes committed against me from peeping to groping to rape. Why is it you can't engage with me? Me being a male means I can't have something to say about what it means to be assaulted?
Was I sexually assaulted?
When we say, "I believe the women," what does that mean?
I truly understand the frustration women have with being believed regarding sexual crimes committed against them because for a man to say it happened to them...especially at the hands of a woman...is Invisible Pink Unicorn territory. I also fully understand that the experience of women as a class is quite different from that of men as a class. Pretty much every single woman is going to have stories like mine while most men aren't.
But those stories still happened to me. You're looking for someone with the perspective of being a victim of sexual impropriety against them, right?
Hi.
I'm right here.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-16-2017 2:20 AM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-17-2017 2:38 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
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