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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 143 of 218 (824803)
12-03-2017 6:49 PM


In the way of an exercise, could a flying pig be fitted into a nested hierarchy?

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 12-03-2017 7:51 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 146 by dwise1, posted 12-03-2017 8:35 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 148 by herebedragons, posted 12-03-2017 8:59 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:24 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 6:19 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 155 of 218 (824896)
12-04-2017 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
12-04-2017 11:24 AM


If a flying mammal (a bat) can be fitted into a nested hierarchy, then another flying mammal - a pig - surely can. All you need to do is invent another branch on the tree - as you could do for any "new" creature (whether living or fossilized). We didn't didn't know there were mammals that grew wings out their ribs, but now we do, so, we just add a branch to the base of the mammal branch.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 12-05-2017 10:45 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 160 by Taq, posted 12-05-2017 12:44 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 161 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2017 1:21 PM Dredge has replied
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 156 of 218 (824897)
12-04-2017 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Percy
12-03-2017 7:51 PM


Percy writes:
dragons
Dragons are described in the Bible, so they existed. When one of their fossils is discovered, evolutionists will have to fit it somehow into their mythical Tree of Life.
-----------------
A pig with four legs and two wings on its back, of course - have you never seen one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 12-03-2017 7:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Coyote, posted 12-04-2017 8:17 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 164 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 4:32 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 157 of 218 (824899)
12-04-2017 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 6:19 PM


NoNukes writes:
guess what? There are no flying pigs.
But they may have existed in the past.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 6:19 PM NoNukes has replied

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 166 of 218 (825264)
12-10-2017 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Percy
12-06-2017 4:32 PM


A description of a fire-breathing monster ("leviathan") is given in the book of Job 40:20 - 41:25. Sounds pretty much like a dragon to me.
Job 40
20 Canst thou draw out the leviathan with a hook, or canst thou tie his tongue with a cord?
21 Canst thou put a ring in his nose, or bore through his jaw with a buckle?
22 Will he make many supplications to thee, or speak soft words to thee?
23 Will he make a covenant with thee, and wilt thou take him to be a servant for ever?
24 Shalt thou play with him as with a bird, or tie him up for thy handmaids?
25 Shall friends cut him in pieces, shall merchants divide him?
26 Wilt thou fill nets with his skin, and the cabins of fishes with his head?
27 Lay thy hand upon him: remember the battle, and speak no more.
28 Behold his hope shall fail him, and in the sight of all he shall be cast down.
Job 41
I will not stir him up, like one that is cruel: for who can resist my countenance?
2 Who hath given me before that I should repay him? All things that are under heaven are mine.
3 I will not spare him, nor his mighty words, and framed to make supplication.
4 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can go into the midst of his mouth?
5 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
6 His body is like molten shields, shut close up with scales pressing upon one another.
7 One is joined to another, and not so much as any air can come between them:
8 They stick one to another and they hold one another fast, and shall not be separated.
9 His sneezing is like the shining of fire, and his eyes like the eyelids of the morning.
10 Out of his mouth go forth lamps, like torches of lighted fire.
11 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, like that of a pot heated and boiling.
12 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame cometh forth out of his mouth.
13 In his neck strength shall dwell, and want goeth before his face.
14 The members of his flesh cleave one to another: he shall send lightnings against him, and they shall not be carried to another place.
15 His heart shall be as hard as a stone, and as firm as a smith's anvil.
16 When he shall raise him up, the angels shall fear, and being affrighted shall purify themselves.
17 When a sword shall lay at him, it shall not be able to hold, nor a spear, nor a breastplate.
18 For he shall esteem iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
19 The archer shall not put him to flight, the stones of the sling are to him like stubble.
20 As stubble will he esteem the hammer, and he will laugh him to scorn who shaketh the spear.
21 The beams of the sun shall be under him, and he shall strew gold under him like mire.
22 He shall make the deep sea to boil like a pot, and shall make it as when ointments boil.
23 A path shall shine after him, he shall esteem the deep as growing old.
24 There is no power upon earth that can be compared with him who was made to fear no one.
25 He beholdeth every high thing, he is king over all the children of pride.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 4:32 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 12-10-2017 9:19 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 12-11-2017 8:19 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 189 of 218 (825439)
12-14-2017 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
12-05-2017 10:45 AM


ringo writes:
That isn't how it works. You can't just "invent" a branch. By definition, a branch has to be connected to something. Where would you connect the flying pig? You can't just connect it to the other pigs because the other pigs only have four legs. What branch has four-legged animals with wings?
What you do is to right back and assume there must have existed a dinosaur with four legs and wings (this is allowable, because as Gould pointed out, as the so-called Tree of lIfe contains many assumptions). Even though their are no fossils or remains found yet for such a creature, you assume it must have existed and fill in the "gap" to the flying pig with a provisional branch until the evidence shows up. As the evidence appears, you can the replace parts of the provisional branch will a real branch (or as "real" as evolution can get). Trust me, it's all very scientific and it will work - just like it did for the unicorn.
There exist humans with arms and legs missing - how do you think these people fit into a nested hierarchy?
Bats didn't grow wings out of their ribs. Have you read the thread at all? Their forelimbs adapted into wings while our forelimbs adapted into arms with grasping hands, whales' forelimbs adapted into swimming fins and pigs' forelimbs adapted into legs for walking on all fours. They're all the same forelimbs adapted to different environments.
Stop this very silly talk. Forelimbs don't evolve into fins and wings - it's impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 12-05-2017 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 198 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 10:54 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 190 of 218 (825440)
12-14-2017 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by RAZD
12-05-2017 1:21 PM


RAZD writes:
Show me the evidence of a flying pig and then we can discuss it.
If flying pigs don't exist, explain the photo in post #160.
The homologous bones are shown in different colors so that even school children can see their similarities.
No doubt they could. And you might even be able to brainwash those gullible and naive children into believing that such similarities mean evolution is true.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2017 1:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by JonF, posted 12-15-2017 8:27 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 201 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2017 11:44 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 191 of 218 (825442)
12-14-2017 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by jar
12-10-2017 9:19 PM


jar writes:
The Hobbit has a far better description of a dragon, certainly one more believable then thinking Job is talking of a dragon.
Job can be regarded as an historical document. You reject it as such due to prejudice.
The Leviathan is describe as a marine creature that breathed fire and smoke, but it could have led to legends about land-based dragons.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 12-10-2017 9:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 6:58 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 192 of 218 (825443)
12-14-2017 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by RAZD
12-11-2017 9:59 AM


No fossils of Leviathan have been found yet. Since it was a sea-monster, the chances of finding the remains of one may be small.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by RAZD, posted 12-11-2017 9:59 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:49 AM Dredge has replied
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 193 of 218 (825446)
12-14-2017 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by AlexCaledin
12-12-2017 12:02 PM


If we didn't have Bombardier beetles roaming about, no one would believe they ever existed.
Speaking of which, I wonder what nested hierarchy they fit into?
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 205 of 218 (826134)
12-22-2017 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Granny Magda
12-18-2017 12:05 PM


Re: lions and tigers and bears, oh my
The dragon depicted in your post doesn't look like a dinosaur, but like some kind of sea-monster ... with fore and hind legs added as an after-thought (as are the two gold balls it is holding). It could be a depiction of a Leviathan, which is described in the book of Job as a marine monster that breathed fire and smoke (ie, a dragon).

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 206 of 218 (826212)
12-26-2017 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
12-15-2017 7:49 AM


Re: Another teaching moment brought to you by Dredge
qs writes:
Yet a very, very large percentage of the existing known fossils are of sea critters. In fact the chances of a sea critter getting fossilized is higher than for a land critter. That is why we have so many fossilized whale skeletons and shark teeth and fish and many sea reptiles and coral and even fossilized casts of seaweed.
Good point. In that case, maybe it's only a matter of time before the remains or a fossil of a Leviathan is found! Wouldn't that be exciting?!
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 7:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 12-27-2017 7:05 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 207 of 218 (826213)
12-26-2017 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by jar
12-15-2017 6:58 AM


Re: Job
jar writes:
Only a fool would consider Job an historical document. It is written as a fantasy. That is not prejudice but rather a conclusion based on the story itself.
A great deal of the Bible is a reliable historical document.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 6:58 AM jar has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 208 of 218 (826214)
12-26-2017 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by ringo
12-15-2017 10:54 AM


coyote writes:
You haven't shown even the slightest rudimentary understanding of the topic. Trusting you would be like trusting a three-year-old to fly an Airbus.
Your words are like rocks hurled at my fragile, egg-shell mind.
You're no judge of what's possible. How do you explain the similarity between a bat's wing and a human hand?
Very easily - a common designer. Notice how very different buildings can have very similar design features.
Incidentally, it's interesting that evolutionists are quick to point out similarities between certain creatures, but are rather slow when it comes to considering the differences.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 209 of 218 (826215)
12-26-2017 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by ringo
12-15-2017 10:56 AM


A bombardier beetle has no evolutionary history (unsurprisingly), so how can it fit into a nested hierarchy and the Tree of Life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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