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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1531 of 4573 (825248)
12-10-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1527 by jar
12-08-2017 9:35 PM


Re: The silly Jerusalem gambit.
jar writes:
The funny thing is that historically Jerusalem was NEVER the capital of Israel. Even during the period of consolidated Kingship Israel and Judah were still independent Nation States much like England & Scotland under James I & VI.
Jerusalem was the capital of Judah.
Trump is merely playing the tune his base wants to hear. He may cause more problems in the world, however...due to his desire to remain in power.
The real reason Trump declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel was because he feared losing his evangelical voter base
some notable quotes:
quote:
There are no fewer than 50 million evangelicals in America who, according to research, are convinced of the literal truth of Biblical prophecy. A recent survey found that 82 per cent of white evangelicals believe that God gave Israel to the Jewish people; a conviction shared by just 40 per cent of American Jews. Among these evangelicals there are those who believe in the prophecy of the End of Days foretelling Jewish control of all Jerusalem, a war of civilisations, and a choice of Jews to either embrace Christianity or die in the wrath of God.
The decision to move the embassy does not actually have much popular support across the US population as a whole. A Brookings Institution survey found that it has the backing of only 31 per cent. Polls have also repeatedly found that a large majority of American Jews, who tend on average to have a better standard of education than the rest of US population, and are liberal by tradition, oppose the move.(...)There is also the money in this. Trump’s campaign has received substantial funding from the Christian right and also hardline American Jewish promoters of Israel. They include Sheldon Adelson, the casino billionaire and Republican donor, who had given $20m (14.9m) to a PAC (political action committee) which supported the Trump campaign and another $1.5m to the organisers of the Republican convention. Adelson has been lobbying the President persistently on the embassy transfer.
Trump is not the only senior member of the administration to cultivate the Christian right. Vice President Mike Pence, who could be seen on TV standing behind Trump as the embassy announcement was made, with a reverent glow to his face, had pressed for a move to Jerusalem. And backing also came from Nikki Haley, the ambassador to the UN who tries her best to match Trump on hawkish rhetoric about smiting America’s enemies. She avidly courted the evangelical vote while Governor of South Carolina.(...)There is thus always the possibility, one has to accept, that the End of Days is not imminent. Armageddon will be put on hold. The Messiah will not appear for the time being and the Jews will not have to convert to Christianity or perish.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 1532 of 4573 (825249)
12-10-2017 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1524 by frako
12-08-2017 4:57 AM


Re: The Process Begins
But is that dementia going to be used for political purposes?
His actions are clearly criminal and he should be marched out in handcuffs. But progressive radio's take on it is that the Repugnicans will proclaim sudden-onset dementia and quietly remove him via the 25th Amendment, leaving the rest of their corrupt operatives firmly in place, albeit ("all be it"; even a native English speaker has problems with that one) with an extreme fundamentalist Christian now at the helm firmly in place to commit unspeakable horrors in the name of his god. Eliminating Pence would leave us with even greater evil: Paul Ryan as President.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 1533 of 4573 (825250)
12-10-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1531 by Phat
12-10-2017 2:01 PM


Re: The silly Jerusalem gambit.
Trump is merely playing the tune his base wants to hear. He may cause more problems in the world, however...due to his desire to remain in power.
The real reason Trump declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel was because he feared losing his evangelical voter base
Well the very reason why that evangelical base wants Jerusalem to be declared the capital of Israel is the same reason they are such fervent supports of the state of Israel: all of that is supposed to lead to the End Times and the Second Coming. Peace in the Middle East not only has nothing to do with anything, but it is the exact opposite of what they want. That evangelical base quite literally wants everything to fall apart and for the shit to start flying in all directions.
They quite literally want everything to fall apart at the seams and Donald Trump is the man to make all that happen for them!

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1534 of 4573 (825251)
12-10-2017 2:40 PM


America’s policy on Jerusalem is laid out in The Jerusalem Embassy Act 1995 passed by the Senate (93-5) and the House (374-37) on 24 October 1995.
https://www.congress.gov/104/plaws/publ45/PLAW-104publ45.pdf
The Act states:
SEC. 3. TIMETABLE.
(a) Statement of the Policy of the United States.
--Jerusalem should remain an undivided city in which the rights of every ethnic and religious group are protected.
--Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and
--the United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999.
Presidents until now have issued a waiver every six months delaying this action.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 1535 of 4573 (825252)
12-10-2017 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1531 by Phat
12-10-2017 2:01 PM


Re: The silly Jerusalem gambit.
Trump is not the only senior member of the administration to cultivate the Christian right. Vice President Mike Pence, who could be seen on TV standing behind Trump as the embassy announcement was made, with a reverent glow to his face, had pressed for a move to Jerusalem. And backing also came from Nikki Haley, the ambassador to the UN who tries her best to match Trump on hawkish rhetoric about smiting America’s enemies. She avidly courted the evangelical vote while Governor of South Carolina.
OK, who here has forgotten Trump's offer to Kasich to make him the most powerful VP in history? Kasich would wield all the power of the Presidency while Trump just served as a figurehead, his own personal particular strength (one that we all wish he would restrict himself to, disregarding Pence). Who could be so deluded as to believe that Trump hadn't made the exact same offer to Pence? And that we are seeing the consequences of that exact same offer?
I received my fundamentalist Christian training as a fellow traveller of the Jesus Freaks of 1970 (right at that movement's epicenter at Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, CA). The only thing that obsessed them more than demonology was the End Times. Hilarious reading for a non-believer (AKA "a normal"), but a nightmare when those extremely deluded idiots gain political power. They have a checklist of what must happen leading up to the Second Coming (a point of contention even with their political wing, premillennialism versus post millennnialism). The establishment of the state of Israel was one check-mark. Then the establishment of Jerusalem as the capital of that state is another (I am kind of weak on that one, being nearly five decades removed), followed by the rebuilding of the Temple (much stronger on that one).
Basically, we have people in power whose religious intent is to create instability and war in the Middle East, all in service to their god. To quote from Firefly, "We're humped!"

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1536 of 4573 (825272)
12-11-2017 9:39 AM


What could possibly go wrong?
quote:
The Trump administration's plans to share nuclear technology with Saudi Arabia could lead to an arms race in the Middle East
  • Saudi Arabia is planning to shift to nuclear power and looking for help from the US.
  • The US plan to share nuclear technology with the Saudis has been in the works for years, but has stalled because Saudi Arabia hasn't agreed to certain safeguards.
  • Now critics worry that the Trump administration may forgo those safeguards, giving Saudi Arabia access to technology that could lead to a regional arms race.
The Trump administration is holding talks on providing nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia a move that critics say could upend decades of U.S. policy and lead to an arms race in the Middle East.
The Saudi government wants nuclear power to free up more oil for export, but current and former American officials suspect the country’s leaders also want to keep up with the enrichment capabilities of their rival, Iran.
Saudi Arabia needs approval from the U.S. in order to receive sensitive American technology. Past negotiations broke down because the Saudi government wouldn’t commit to certain safeguards against eventually using the technology for weapons.
Now the Trump administration has reopened those talks and might not insist on the same precautions. At a Senate hearing on Nov. 28, Christopher Ford, the National Security Council’s senior director for weapons of mass destruction and counterproliferation, disclosed that the U.S. is discussing the issue with the Saudi government. He called the safeguards a desired outcome but didn’t commit to them.
Abandoning the safeguards would set up a showdown with powerful skeptics in Congress. It could be a hell of a fight, one senior Democratic congressional aide said.
The idea of sharing nuclear technology with Saudi Arabia took an unlikely path to the highest levels of government. An eccentric inventor and a murky group of retired military brass most of them with plenty of medals but no experience in commercial nuclear energy have peddled various incarnations of the plan for years.
Many U.S. officials didn’t think the idea was serious, reputable or in the national interest. It smelled so bad I said I never wanted to be anywhere close to that, one former White House official said. But the proponents persisted, and finally found an opening in the chaotic early days of the Trump administration, when advisers Michael Flynn and Tom Barrack championed the idea.
Stoking middle east Armageddon?

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 1537 of 4573 (825284)
12-11-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1521 by Percy
12-07-2017 11:21 AM


Re: The Process Begins
It's Section 4 of the 25th Amendment to the US Constitution. Apparently not only can the cabinet remove an unfit president, so can Congress: "...or of such other body as Congress may by law provide...". Representative Jamie D. Raskin (Dem-Md) has written a letter proposing a committee be formed to study the president's fitness to serve. It has 50 House co-sponsors. Read about it here in this Jennifer Rubin editorial in the Washington Post: And about the 25th Amendment
Based on my reading of the 25th Amendment, Congress does not appear to have any power to remove an unfit President - only the vice-President does. The "such other body as Congress may by law provide" only comes into play in the event that the VP declares the President unfit, and the President disagrees.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1538 of 4573 (825299)
12-11-2017 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1537 by caffeine
12-11-2017 1:15 PM


Re: The Process Begins
caffeine writes:
Based on my reading of the 25th Amendment, Congress does not appear to have any power to remove an unfit President - only the vice-President does. The "such other body as Congress may by law provide" only comes into play in the event that the VP declares the President unfit, and the President disagrees.
You're right that Pence has to be on board, but the point is that it isn't just Pence and the cabinet that has the power to remove an unfit President. It could be Pence and "such other body as Congress may by law provide." That editorial I cited, And about the 25th Amendment was calling attention to a letter proposing that a committee be formed to study this option.
--Percy

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1539 of 4573 (825301)
12-11-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1538 by Percy
12-11-2017 6:11 PM


Bad trades.
Trading and inept clown for Pence or Ryan does not look like a wise move.
Let's keep Trump as President and simply ignore what he says.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1540 of 4573 (825302)
12-11-2017 6:30 PM


Accusers Call for Congressional Investigation
From Trump accusers call for Congress to investigate sexual harassment allegations against him:
quote:
Three women who have previously accused President Donald Trump of sexual misconduct or harassment in the years prior to his election are calling for Congress to investigate the allegations against him following a week in which three U.S. senators and congressional representatives stepped down over similar claims.
The article contains a good video of the statements of the three women.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 1541 of 4573 (825331)
12-13-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1540 by Percy
12-11-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Accusers Call for Congressional Investigation
'The president denies any and all accusations of sexual misconduct in the past or present. ' The president has stated that anyone who comes forward with allegations of any kind is a liar and should be discredited immediately as such..' ~Sarah H. Sanders probably

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1542 of 4573 (825341)
12-13-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1541 by 1.61803
12-13-2017 9:25 AM


Re: Accusers Call for Congressional Investigation
I couldn't find those quotes - maybe you're paraphrasing? Is that what "~Sarah H. Sanders" means?
Anyway, your post brought to mind thoughts that I don't have the time to express right now, but I thought I would call people's attention to this New York Times Editorial:
The editorial reminds us of the lesson learned long ago during WWII, that a people who blindly follow their leaders without questioning orders live in danger of trudging down dangerous paths and of committing terrible crimes:
quote:
When immense power is in erratic and belligerent hands, as it is today in the United States, the readiness of subordinates to disobey becomes critical. Befehl ist befehl an order is an order was the German principle that enabled the Nazis’ industrialized mass murder.
This is a paragraph that Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and all Trump supporters everywhere, should read every day, and then follow the directive it clearly implies: to follow your conscience and your humanity first before any orders.
Members of the Trump administration and the Republican party are guilty of complicity on a colossal scale. They have sold out their humanity for a mere pinch of power. Trump supporters are complicit, too, but who can fathom their complicity for they gain nothing, having sold their humanity for a pocketful of mumbles that are nothing but lies and deceit and misogyny and racism and a sellout of our national resources, not to mention higher taxes and down the road reduced Social Security and Medicare to pay for the huge deficits we're about to run.
My opinion of yesterday's Alabama election results runs contrary to most editorials in the main stream media - I think it provides little hope. This is not a case of a state rejecting Trumpian values, but of a large turnout just barely managing a win in a state that mostly supports lies, deceit, misogyny, racism and ignoring constitutional law. And there would have been no win had it not been for the added dimension of a scandal involving young girls.
[AbE]
An editorial was just posted to the Washington Post that is largely very positive but in one of it's paragraphs echoes what I just said and is worth quoting here:: From Donald Trump to Roy Moore, the difference #MeToo and a year makes:
quote:
Moore’s defeat is not exactly a sign that the battle is over. If allegations of sexual harassment, sexual abuse and sexual assault were truly the political career-enders they ought to be, Moore wouldn’t have pulled in 649,240 votes 48.4 percent of the total. If #MeToo had truly penetrated and changed the consciousness of the entire population, 72 percent of white men and 63 percent of white women wouldn’t have voted for Moore. If we actually had a society-wide consensus on this sort of behavior, and if we truly trusted women more, Moore would have been run out of the race and polite society on a rail by a bipartisan committee of decent humans. The only disagreement would have been who got to share in the honor of hoisting the rail on their shoulders.
[/AbE]
The red states remain red, and their residents will vote against decency and humanity if it means (to name the positions they hold most in common) a smaller government and opposition to separation of church and state. Racism? Fine, as long as you're against LGBT. Misogyny? Fine, as long as you're against abortion. Religious discrimination? Fine, as long as you're against Islam. Welching on DACA (dreamers)? Fine, as long as you're against immigration. Are these people even human?
In the years before WWII Hitler (sorry, Godwin) led Germany into an economic Renaissance, and Germans were more than willing to avert their eyes to the usurpation and abuse of power under Hitler, even after Kristallnacht. Within a year Hitler was invading Poland and the war was on.
Trump is presiding over an economic recovery that began long, long before while Obama was president. After only a year in office he cannot take credit for the economy. But given how friendly Trump is to business what we will see is increasingly good economic numbers for both the country and for businesses while the bulk of the US population sees little benefit.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1543 of 4573 (825343)
12-13-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1542 by Percy
12-13-2017 12:01 PM


Re: Accusers Call for Congressional Investigation
And once you give away the National Lands it is nearly impossible to get them back. You can't undo rape and that is what is happening today in the US.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1544 of 4573 (825347)
12-13-2017 2:16 PM


Trump's "glass half full"
After giving a full endorsement to Roy Moore and dragging most of the rest of his party into doing the same, Trump tweets the following:
quote:
Hours after Republican Roy Moore lost the Senate election to Doug Jones, President Trump tweeted "I was right" despite endorsing Moore. The president explained that he originally backed Luther Strange because he knew Roy Moore could not win the General Election.
Of course, we all recall that after endorsing Strange, Trump was pretty pissed at McConnell for convincing him to back a loser and that Trump immediately jumped on the Moore bandwagon. Trump now has the sack to take credit for prescience.
Subtract the spin, and what we have here is that Trump backed two losers when he could easily have stayed on the sidelines and gotten the same result. Plus his backing of Moore has resulted in a spotlight being shined on Trump's own harassment of women. That's not a win by any stretch.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1545 of 4573 (825351)
12-13-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1544 by NoNukes
12-13-2017 2:16 PM


Re: Trump's "glass half full"
NoNukes writes:
That's not a win by any stretch.
You underestimate Trump's ability to stretch (the truth). To him, everything is a win. He was right that Moore was not the best candidate. He was right again when it looked like Moore would win. And he was right for the third time when Moore didn't win.
If Trump is defeated in 2020, he'll use the Bart Simpson Defence: "I could have been re-elected but I didn't wanna."

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