Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 48 (9179 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,255 Year: 5,512/9,624 Month: 537/323 Week: 34/143 Day: 7/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(1)
Message 361 of 1540 (822028)
10-17-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Percy
10-15-2017 12:54 PM


Percy responds to my request that he prove Gods functionality by saying this:
"You tell me how to prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster fictional and I'll prove God fictional. Deal?".
What do we know about the FSM? Is there source material about him? Has anyone claimed to have seen the FSM? What did they say about their encounter with him?
How many people have claimed to have had encounters with the FSM?
What do we know about the God of the Bible? Is there any source material about him?
Has anyone claimed to have seen the God of the Bible? What did they say about their encounter with him? How many people have claimed to have had encounters with the God of the Bible?
There is a wealth of material related to the God of the Bible and the only material related to the FSM is from atheists who merely conjured him as a debating point and as a way to say the possibility of the God of the Bible being real is just as likely as the reality of the FSM.
That is quite an astonishing claim to make as there is virtually nothing anyone has ever said about the FSM by way of definition.
The FSM monster is real as defined by the following:
It is merely a debating device and doesn't exist in anyone's mind as deity and has only come into existence in the last decade or possibly two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Percy, posted 10-15-2017 12:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 10-17-2017 9:10 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


(1)
Message 362 of 1540 (822029)
10-17-2017 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Percy
10-15-2017 12:54 PM


Percy has acknowledged that he cannot prove the God of the Bible doesn't exist but defends himself with this philosophical statement:
"We don't assume something exists until it is proven that it doesn't. Rather, we only assume something exists when overt evidence for it is uncovered."
You made a declarative statement that God is a fictionality. I asked you to prove it. You respond by saying we don't assume something exists until overt evidence for it is uncovered.
More to come as time permits. I have very little time as you can see by how little I post here and so this may be the last post in a long time.
First, I didn't ask you to assume anything. I was making statements about God to make my point about hell. People were attacking poster faith for believing God tortures people in eternity for simply being born to the wrong parents and being exposed to the wrong belief system.
I thought this line of attack was unfair in that some Christians like me hold a different interpretation of the Bible regarding Gods judgement and the afterlife. In order to comment on such things, you must reference the God of the Bible. Saying that God is not proven to exist, does not engage the topic at hand in any way. If we cannot reference the God of the Bible in our religious arguments, then there should be a forum rule that states all references to the God of the Bible are strictly forbidden unless you can prove his existence. You might as well have a forum that is for any belief system outside of the God of the Bible. Demanding proof for God's existence when offering an interpretation of the Bible regarding judgement and the afterlife is ridiculous.
As for not assuming something exists until overt evidence is uncovered, that is a reasonable demand to make in most instances.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Percy, posted 10-15-2017 12:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 363 of 1540 (822031)
10-17-2017 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by foreveryoung
10-17-2017 8:47 PM


utter nonsense from foreveryoung
foreveryoung writes:
What do we know about the God of the Bible? Is there any source material about him?
Has anyone claimed to have seen the God of the Bible? What did they say about their encounter with him? How many people have claimed to have had encounters with the God of the Bible?
No, of course there is no source material related to the God of the Bible just as there is no "God of the Bible". There are absolutely not original manuscripts of any material in any of the many different "Bibles" created by the different chapters of Club Christian.
There are stories written by unknown authors that contain various tales of encounters with God but they are often inconsistent, shown to evolve over time and retelling and contradictory.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by foreveryoung, posted 10-17-2017 8:47 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 364 of 1540 (822033)
10-17-2017 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by jar
10-17-2017 4:09 PM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
If that is true then there is no value in Christianity and it should just be a footno0te if even that. Jesus is a failed Messiah which is why the Christian Marketers changed the definition of what the Messiah would be.
If that is the sole reason for Christianity then it is of no value whatsoever.
I happen to think Christianity is far more then just that.
We've gone through this before and your views are simply theistic and could be consistent with most faiths.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 10-17-2017 4:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by jar, posted 10-18-2017 6:44 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 365 of 1540 (822045)
10-18-2017 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
10-17-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
We've gone through this before and your views are simply theistic and could be consistent with most faiths.
Yes, you have made that claim and the only issue is of course that just as with the Bible you are simply taking things out of context.
The fact is that I am a Christian and thus my position is a Christian position.
Sorry Charlie but thems the facts.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 10-17-2017 9:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by GDR, posted 10-18-2017 9:48 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 366 of 1540 (822068)
10-18-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by GDR
10-17-2017 1:30 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
Jesus' was resurrected with a renewed body that is not subject to a later death.
I was just pointing out what the words actually mean. Your made-up special meaning for Jesus' resurrection is not valid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by GDR, posted 10-17-2017 1:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 10-18-2017 9:50 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 367 of 1540 (822084)
10-18-2017 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by jar
10-18-2017 6:44 AM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
Yes, you have made that claim and the only issue is of course that just as with the Bible you are simply taking things out of context.
The fact is that I am a Christian and thus my position is a Christian position.
Sorry Charlie but thems the facts.
What is it that is specific to Christianity that you believe? What would cause you to believe that it is better to follow Jesus as opposed to following Mahatma Gandhi?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by jar, posted 10-18-2017 6:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 6:35 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 368 of 1540 (822085)
10-18-2017 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by ringo
10-18-2017 3:14 PM


Re: Evolving theology
ringo writes:
I was just pointing out what the words actually mean. Your made-up special meaning for Jesus' resurrection is not valid.
Instead of just saying that I got it wrong can you tell us how you have it right?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by ringo, posted 10-18-2017 3:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 10-19-2017 11:49 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 369 of 1540 (822093)
10-19-2017 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by GDR
10-18-2017 9:48 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
What is it that is specific to Christianity that you believe?
Well as a Creedal Christian I believe the basics found in the Nicene Creed.
GDR writes:
What would cause you to believe that it is better to follow Jesus as opposed to following Mahatma Gandhi?
Well, Gandhi never started a religion so I am not at all sure what you are asking. And why should I believe that the Path I choose is a better path than that chosen by others? After all, Jesus was never a Christian, Jesus was born, raised and died a Jew. Christianity is a religion created by others, not by Jesus.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by GDR, posted 10-18-2017 9:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 11:09 AM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22700
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 370 of 1540 (822095)
10-19-2017 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by foreveryoung
10-17-2017 8:12 PM


Hi ForEverYoung,
Gee, four replies from a single person to one of my messages - I think that's some kind of record for me. I'll reply to them all in this message.
From ForEverYoung's Message 359:
foreveryoung writes:
percy writes:
foreveryoung writes:
percy writes:
foreveryoung writes:
Hell is separation from God.
Well, that's made up. Aside from God's fictionality and basing this on the Christian view, how does one ever gain separation from an entity that permeates the universe?
It's my understanding of the Bible. Do you have a better interpretation?
What is the value of a made up interpretation
There is no such thing as a made up interpretation unless a person makes no reference to any verse or any ideal that can be reasonably be said to be found in the Bible as a whole.
Why don't you answer the original question? If, as you say, Hell is separation from God, then how does one ever gain separation from an entity that permeates the universe?
If you're interpretation isn't made up, then tell us what passage of the Bible you're interpreting.
From ForEveryYoung's Message 360:
foreveryoung writes:
Percy asks why his interpretation would be better than mine.
Why are you addressing me in the 3rd person in a message that's a reply to me? Generally in such contexts you refer to the person you're addressing as "you".
It would only be better depending on what assumptions people bring to the Bible. If you claim that the Bible reflects reality as much as green eggs and ham by dr Seuss, then there is no such thing as an interpretation on your part as you believe there is nothing in the Bible that has anything at all to say to humanity.
I don't believe the Bible has no value, but Hell is a fictional place.
A relevant interpretation would take at least a few references to the afterlife concept in the Bible or references to hell or the lake of fire or of God's judgement in general. If you refuse to even contemplate any of these references in the Bible...
You didn't provide any such references in making your pronouncement that "Hell is separation from God," why should I? How could I, given that I have to idea what passages you're using? Plus there's still my unanswered question about how there could ever be separation from an entity that permeates the universe.
You charge me with making up something out of whole cloth. This simply is not true. I believe the Bible to be inspired by God and there is nothing in it that he did not intend to be there. From that belief, I build an argument to establish the claim I made that you say is made up.
All books were and are written by men and/or women. What is your evidence behind, "I believe the Bible to be inspired by God"?
You can claim that the beliefs outlined in the above paragraph cannot be established but to them say that makes my conclusion made up is really saying that you refuse to even use the Bible as a point of reference in a religious discussion.
That's a good point. After arguing with Faith I tend to forget that not all religious believers think faith is backed by hard evidence. If your belief that the Bible is inspired by God is based upon faith (where faith means not having evidence for what you believe) then that's fine.
You simply could have said that although you believe the Bible to be complete rubbish,...
But I don't believe the Bible is complete rubbish. I believe it is a book written by men that contains much knowledge and wisdom (and also a lot of crap), but that is not the inspired Word of God.
I would then respond by giving you the reference points in the Bible that make my case and it would then be your turn to either say I misunderstand said references or that they fail to support my case.
Well, that's great. You can start by referencing the Biblical passages that support your contention that, "Hell is separation from God."
From ForEverYoung's Message 361:
foreveryoung writes:
What do we know about the FSM? Is there source material about him?
Please see the Wikipedia article on the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Has anyone claimed to have seen the FSM? What did they say about their encounter with him?
Please see Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: Sighting off the Angolan Coast. It references a New Scientist article titled ‘Flying spaghetti monster’ caught on video off the Angolan coast.
How many people have claimed to have had encounters with the FSM?
I don't know. Is a minimum number required? I'm not familiar with the rules for evaluating encounters with fictional beings.
What do we know about the God of the Bible?
That he's a damn son-of-a-bitch who lightened up quite a bit in the NT?
Has anyone claimed to have seen the God of the Bible?
Uncountable numbers of people have claimed to have seen God. And ghosts. And UFOs.
There is a wealth of material related to the God of the Bible and the only material related to the FSM is from atheists who merely conjured him as a debating point and as a way to say the possibility of the God of the Bible being real is just as likely as the reality of the FSM.
Why don't you just say what's true, that your belief in God is based upon unshakeable faith. What more need be said?
It is merely a debating device and doesn't exist in anyone's mind as deity and has only come into existence in the last decade or possibly two.
Ah, geez, now why did you have to go and say that? No one said anything disparaging about Paul making up a religion out of whole cloth.
From ForEverYoung's Message 362:
foreveryoung writes:
Percy has acknowledged that he cannot prove the God of the Bible doesn't exist but defends himself with this philosophical statement:
"We don't assume something exists until it is proven that it doesn't. Rather, we only assume something exists when overt evidence for it is uncovered."
You made a declarative statement that God is a fictionality. I asked you to prove it. You respond by saying we don't assume something exists until overt evidence for it is uncovered.
Is there anything else besides God that even in the absence of evidence you believe exists anyway? Leprechauns, perhaps? Witches, since they're in the Bible plus we're getting close to Halloween?
First, I didn't ask you to assume anything. I was making statements about God to make my point about hell.
Just a quick reminder, you still haven't provided any Biblical passages supporting your statement about Hell.
People were attacking poster faith for believing God tortures people in eternity for simply being born to the wrong parents and being exposed to the wrong belief system.
"God tortures people in eternity"? And you worship this being? Are you sure you didn't mean the Devil?
Saying that God is not proven to exist, does not engage the topic at hand in any way.
Well, wait a minute here. I said I would back off on requesting evidence because real faith doesn't require evidence. To me faith is having no evidence but believing anyway. But if you're going to take a stance identical to Faith's that evidence exists for the existence of God and everything else in the Bible (you just stated that you've proven God exists), then discussion of the evidence backing your faith seems very much a fair topic in a thread titled The Tension of Faith.
If we cannot reference the God of the Bible in our religious arguments, then there should be a forum rule that states all references to the God of the Bible are strictly forbidden unless you can prove his existence. You might as well have a forum that is for any belief system outside of the God of the Bible. Demanding proof for God's existence when offering an interpretation of the Bible regarding judgement and the afterlife is ridiculous.
Well now you've gone off in the opposite direction. First you say you *can* prove God exists, now you say it's ridiculous to demand proof of God. Which is it?
As for not assuming something exists until overt evidence is uncovered, that is a reasonable demand to make in most instances.
It's a reasonable demand in science threads, but this isn't a science thread. This thread is in the Faith and Belief forum. So whether evidence is relevant to this discussion is wholly dependent upon whether you belief your faith is supported by evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by foreveryoung, posted 10-17-2017 8:12 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 371 of 1540 (822105)
10-19-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by jar
10-19-2017 6:35 AM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
Well as a Creedal Christian I believe the basics found in the Nicene Creed.
Do you believe this part of the Nicene creed?
quote:
.....he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead. ;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
jar writes:
Well, Gandhi never started a religion so I am not at all sure what you are asking. And why should I believe that the Path I choose is a better path than that chosen by others? After all, Jesus was never a Christian, Jesus was born, raised and died a Jew. Christianity is a religion created by others, not by Jesus.
Of course Jesus was born and died a Jew. Just as certainly however is the fact that His whole mission was to reform Judaism. There was the branch of Judaism that did not accept the reformation as presented by Jesus, but there was also the group that did. The ones that did met on their own and quickly followed through with taking it to the Gentiles as well and that group became the root of the Christian church.
Gandhi espoused agreed with the social message of Christianity and said that by being a good Hindu he would also be a good Christian. He however was very critical of Christians particularly after his experience with apartheid in South Africa. He often quoted Jesus.
If Jesus was not resurrected then He was as I said simply another failed messiah and as Jesus and Gandhi preached essentially the same message then there is no more reason tho be a Christian and there is to be a Gandhian.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 6:35 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 11:45 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 372 of 1540 (822109)
10-19-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by GDR
10-19-2017 11:09 AM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
Do you believe this part of the Nicene creed?
There you go taking pieces parts out of context yet again.
And that is where I see your version of Christianity diminishing and perverting Christianity.
I have already said that I believe the Nicene Creed, but I also don't take pieces parts out of it.
GDR writes:
If Jesus was not resurrected then He was as I said simply another failed messiah and as Jesus and Gandhi preached essentially the same message then there is no more reason tho be a Christian and there is to be a Gandhian.
Of course there is no such thing as a Ghandian and I too am often critical of Christians and much of Christianity.
And if you believe the teaching of Christianity hinges on Jesus death, resurrection and ascension then I think you too have simply missed the whole point of Jesus life.
A pity.
But that does not mean you are not a Christian, just a somewhat failed Christian.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 11:09 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 2:16 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 373 of 1540 (822111)
10-19-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by GDR
10-18-2017 9:50 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
Instead of just saying that I got it wrong can you tell us how you have it right?
I did. Resurrection means rising from the dead. It doesn't have special Christian connotations that some denominations accept and others don't. You can pretend that Jesus was special but you can't pretend that the word resurrection applies only to Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 10-18-2017 9:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 2:19 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 374 of 1540 (822116)
10-19-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by jar
10-19-2017 11:45 AM


Re: Evolving theology
jar writes:
There you go taking pieces parts out of context yet again.
And that is where I see your version of Christianity diminishing and perverting Christianity.
I have already said that I believe the Nicene Creed, but I also don't take pieces parts out of it.
That's nonsense. What you are saying is that you accept the parts of the Nicene Creed which you accept.
Again, what is it that you believe that is specifically Christian and couldn't just as easily be part of any other religion. Sure, I have no problem with you calling yourself a Christian, but it is cultural Christianity that you follow which isn't a bad thing.
jar writes:
And if you believe the teaching of Christianity hinges on Jesus death, resurrection and ascension then I think you too have simply missed the whole point of Jesus life.
I have never claimed, just the opposite in fact, that that is the whole point of Jesus' life. However, without the resurrection Jesus is simply a failed messiah, and there is no more reason to give Him credibility as part of the godhead than Gandhi.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 3:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 375 of 1540 (822117)
10-19-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by ringo
10-19-2017 11:49 AM


Re: Evolving theology
ringo writes:
I did. Resurrection means rising from the dead. It doesn't have special Christian connotations that some denominations accept and others don't. You can pretend that Jesus was special but you can't pretend that the word resurrection applies only to Him.
Would you say that Lazarus was resurrected? Would you say that someone who dies on the operating table and is brought back to life is resurrected. Do you see any differences in the Biblical account of the resurrection of Jesus and Lazarus being brought back to life?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 10-19-2017 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 3:31 PM GDR has replied
 Message 384 by Aussie, posted 10-20-2017 11:43 AM GDR has replied
 Message 385 by ringo, posted 10-20-2017 11:49 AM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024