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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 331 of 1540 (821911)
10-15-2017 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by foreveryoung
10-15-2017 7:08 AM


foreveryoung writes:
Hell is separation from God. No one is separated from God now, although many barely feel his presence. Remember the intense joys you had as a child? That was Gods presence.
This is the kind of preacherish, made-up, wishful-thinking twaddle that turns people off religion.
I used to be able to laugh this sort of nonsense off, but these days it just makes me angry - particularly when it's targeted at children.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by foreveryoung, posted 10-15-2017 7:08 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22605
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 332 of 1540 (821912)
10-15-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by foreveryoung
10-15-2017 7:08 AM


foreveryoung writes:
Hell is separation from God.
Well, that's made up. Aside from God's fictionality and basing this on the Christian view, how does one ever gain separation from an entity that permeates the universe?
No one is separated from God now,...
How could you ever know?
...although many barely feel his presence.
His presence as indicated by what? Self reporting?
Remember the intense joys you had as a child? That was Gods presence.
Tell us about the intense joys experienced by the baby in this headline: Man held by Taliban-linked captors: They raped my wife, killed our baby
--Percy

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 Message 330 by foreveryoung, posted 10-15-2017 7:08 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 333 of 1540 (821913)
10-15-2017 8:44 AM


Percy said " Well, that's made up. "
It's my understanding of the Bible. Do you have a better interpretation?

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 334 of 1540 (821914)
10-15-2017 8:49 AM


Percy said "Aside from God's fictionality". Do you have proof of his fictionality?

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by jar, posted 10-15-2017 9:53 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 337 by Percy, posted 10-15-2017 12:54 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34046
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 335 of 1540 (821916)
10-15-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by foreveryoung
10-15-2017 8:49 AM


foreveryoung writes:
Percy said "Aside from God's fictionality". Do you have proof of his fictionality?
The Bible itself is really good and massive evidence of God's fictionality. One clear example is that the God character in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God character in Genesis 2&3.
The God found in Genesis 1 is competent, overarching, sure, decisive but also separate, aloof and not interacting with the creation.
The God in Genesis 2&3 is unsure, ignorant, bumbling, fearful, learning on the job, dishonest but also human, empathetic, caring, and in direct interaction with the creation.
The Gods of the Bible are all fictional caricatures and plot devices.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by foreveryoung, posted 10-15-2017 8:49 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 336 of 1540 (821917)
10-15-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Percy
10-13-2017 10:09 AM


Evolving theology
Percy writes:
I wasn't comparing your beliefs to my beliefs. I was making an observation on what it looks like from the outside when someone says their beliefs are evolving over time. Let me state this in the most favorable way possible to your perspective by not describing your views as changing but as undergoing a process of refinement. You once viewed some theological aspect one way, now you view it in a more nuanced way, and you think the view you hold today a closer approximation to the truth than your former view. But that view may change again, and then you'll think that new view an even closer approximation to truth. But...
That doesn’t get the whole picture though. The very basic fundamental beliefs of my Christianity are constant. Firstly as a theist I believe that God is good, just and loving, and wants us to emulate that. Secondly as a Christian I believe that God resurrected Jesus. Those views haven’t changed.
For nearly 2000 years now Christians, including Paul by the way, have been working at what, why and how God did what He did, is doing now and will do in the future. That is what theology is about. As a matter of fact the whole Bible is like that. It is a progressive or evolving revelation. It isn’t that there are different gods in the Bible. It is about one God who mankind continually kept understanding more clearly. Look at the difference between the Torah and Isaiah. Jesus of course showed many areas where they had gotten it all wrong and moved our understanding much further along. Still, there are lots of things that we don’t understand but as individuals and societies we try and understand better, through scripture, tradition and reason.
Percy writes:
There are not other objective ways of knowing than in the "scientific sense." I'm fine with claims of knowing things subjectively to be true for oneself, but that doesn't make them true for other people, nor does it make them true in any objective sense. But most critically, even the claim of knowing something subjectively to be true breaks down because opinions of what is true change, just as you described. Since all the different beliefs you've held over time can't all be true, likely none of them are true.
All the New Testament writers wrote that God resurrected Jesus. I objectively know that. I subjectively believe that they weren’t lying and were actually correct. We can say that about any historical document. We can read about the Battle of Hastings In 1066. We objectively know that the authors wrote the accounts as they did, but we subjectively come to our individual conclusions about whether the details are correct or whether the battle happened at all.
Percy writes:
So when you say, "Maybe one of us is right and maybe both of us are wrong," it isn't doesn't capture the actual situation. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I don't have a position on this to be wrong about, because my position is that those things claimed religiously are likely wrong, sometimes because they don't derive from evidence and observation, and sometimes because they differ with other religions in ways where they can't both be true, and sometimes for other reasons. Sure, I concede that it must be true that you're possibly right about some things, but that would be by chance or luck and not via any established path to knowledge.
Interesting when you say that you don’t have a position and then in the same sentence tell us what your position is. Really what you are talking about is nothing but the difference between things we know objectively and things we believe subjectively.
Percy writes:
Not sure how to interpret the smilie. Is the joke that if they're in jail they're not true Christians? But that would be cold and ungenerous, so that can't be it. Is it that you're trying to be gentle about informing me it's not true what I said about jailhouse demographics? But it is true, so that can't be it. Sorry, don't know what you mean.
Frankly I don’t know how that could all be worked out anyway. Christianity in many ways is not just about belief but is about a culture. It isn’t about who is a true Christian but about what culture we identify with. I have lots of friends who say they are Christian but don’t really know anything about the faith and never attend church except for weddings etc. They simply grew up in a Christian culture and identify with that group. You made an assertion without any evidence to support it, but I don’t frankly see it as being germane anyway.
Percy writes:
I don't think many if any here have any problem with people declaring what path works best for them. Argument only arises when that path is the declared the one, right and true path for everyone, or, as you said in a different context, just ask Faith .
Well, there likely is one right and true path for everyone but we aren’t all in agreement about which path that is.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Percy, posted 10-13-2017 10:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 1:25 PM GDR has replied
 Message 343 by Percy, posted 10-15-2017 3:19 PM GDR has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22605
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 337 of 1540 (821922)
10-15-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by foreveryoung
10-15-2017 8:49 AM


Hi ForEverYoung,
There are two general reply buttons on each page of a thread, one near the top of the page, the other near the bottom. These buttons are appropriate for when you're replying generally to a thread and not to anyone in particular.
At the bottom of each message is a reply button. That button is appropriate for when you're replying to that specific message.
Also, there's a quoting mechanism. For example, when I type this into a message:
[qs=foreveryoung] Percy said " Well, that's made up. "
It's my understanding of the Bible. Do you have a better interpretation?[/qs]
Then what I get is this:
foreveryoung writes:
Percy said " Well, that's made up. "
It's my understanding of the Bible. Do you have a better interpretation?
Well, thank you for the invitation to provide my own interpretation, but why would an interpretation that I (or anyone else) make up be any better than one you make up? What is the value of a made up interpretation? If you believe in your understanding and don't think it is made up then a better response than soliciting better interpretations might be to provide a defense, a justification, a rationale.
Percy said "Aside from God's fictionality". Do you have proof of his fictionality?
There's more than one way to respond to this request. One is by example, e.g.:
  • You tell me how to prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster fictional and I'll prove God fictional. Deal?
Another is by explaining the request has the way we acquire knowledge backwards:
  • We don't assume something exists until it is proven that it doesn't. Rather, we only assume something exists when overt evidence for it is uncovered. For example, we didn't know bacteria existed until microscopes provided evidence. Where is your evidence that God exists?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by foreveryoung, posted 10-15-2017 8:49 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by foreveryoung, posted 10-17-2017 8:12 PM Percy has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 338 of 1540 (821924)
10-15-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Percy
10-13-2017 10:09 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Percy,to GDR writes:
I wasn't comparing your beliefs to my beliefs. I was making an observation on what it looks like from the outside when someone says their beliefs are evolving over time. Let me state this in the most favorable way possible to your perspective by not describing your views as changing but as undergoing a process of refinement. You once viewed some theological aspect one way, now you view it in a more nuanced way, and you think the view you hold today a closer approximation to the truth than your former view. But that view may change again, and then you'll think that new view an even closer approximation to truth.(...) I'm fine with claims of knowing things subjectively to be true for oneself, but that doesn't make them true for other people, nor does it make them true in any objective sense. But most critically, even the claim of knowing something subjectively to be true breaks down because opinions of what is true change, just as you described. Since all the different beliefs you've held over time can't all be true, likely none of them are true.
My beliefs are evolving. It is honest to admit that none of them have been likely to be true in the objective sense. I used to always claim that one needs to stand for something or they will fall for anything. Which brings us to a working definition for truth. Of late, I am leaning towards the belief that honesty is truth. To thine own self be true.
Thus to say that "I dont know" is far better than claiming to know based on what one has read.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Percy, posted 10-13-2017 10:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by ringo, posted 10-15-2017 2:10 PM Phat has replied
 Message 346 by Percy, posted 10-15-2017 6:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 339 of 1540 (821925)
10-15-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by GDR
10-15-2017 11:01 AM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
Christianity in many ways is not just about belief but is about a culture. It isn’t about who is a true Christian but about what culture we identify with. I have lots of friends who say they are Christian but don’t really know anything about the faith and never attend church except for weddings etc. They simply grew up in a Christian culture and identify with that group.(...)There likely is one right and true path for everyone but we aren’t all in agreement about which path that is.
Let's get back to your signature.
quote:
He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8
For some of us, doing justice, being honest, and loving kindness are all we can honestly do. We have no idea what it means to walk humbly with God. My question is this: Is it important to at least being open about one's willingness to do so..without any concept of Who it is they would even be walking with?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by GDR, posted 10-15-2017 11:01 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by GDR, posted 10-15-2017 6:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 340 of 1540 (821929)
10-15-2017 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Phat
10-15-2017 1:12 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:
Of late, I am leaning towards the belief that honesty is truth.
That doesn't work. Lots of people honestly believe things that are not true.
I would say rather that truth is verifiable. If you can't show "the truth" to somebody else and have them agree that it's true, you can't claim that it is true, no matter how honestly you wish it was true. (And you can't pick and choose who agrees with you either. It has to be a transparent process.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 1:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:20 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 341 of 1540 (821930)
10-15-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by ringo
10-15-2017 2:10 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
I disagree. Not all truth is verifiable...as least initially. Sometimes you gotta choose a road without knowing the final destination. It would be great if we always had good road signs, but they sometimes are lacking.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by ringo, posted 10-15-2017 2:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by ringo, posted 10-15-2017 2:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 342 of 1540 (821933)
10-15-2017 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Phat
10-15-2017 2:20 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:
I disagree. Not all truth is verifiable...as least initially. Sometimes you gotta choose a road without knowing the final destination.
That has nothing to do with truth. Sure, sometimes you have to choose a road - and sometimes you'll choose the wrong road.
We're talking about faith here - i.e. people refusing to accept the road signs because of their faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22605
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 343 of 1540 (821937)
10-15-2017 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by GDR
10-15-2017 11:01 AM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
That doesn’t get the whole picture though. The very basic fundamental beliefs of my Christianity are constant. Firstly as a theist I believe that God is good, just and loving, and wants us to emulate that. Secondly as a Christian I believe that God resurrected Jesus. Those views haven’t changed.
That's a couple of fundamental beliefs, but what about the rest? Are you born again? Do you believe Jesus died for your sins? Do you believe in the fall? Do you believe in original sin? Do you believe in redemption through belief or deeds? Have your views changed on any of these things?
For nearly 2000 years now Christians, including Paul by the way, have been working at what, why and how God did what He did, is doing now and will do in the future. That is what theology is about.
Most of Christian theological writing is about how to interpret the Bible, whose ambiguous and contradictory nature is why there are so many Christian sects. It's also why your beliefs keep changing.
As a matter of fact the whole Bible is like that. It is a progressive or evolving revelation.
And yet the words don't change. Is the similarity to mysticism apparent to you?
It isn’t that there are different gods in the Bible. It is about one God who mankind continually kept understanding more clearly.
Again, yet the words don't change. Also, how do you know that mankind's understanding of God is becoming more clear or is just changing? Since the great variety of Christian sects concurrently represent a great many different beliefs about God, the evidence favors a view that there can be no one, right and true Christian belief. The beliefs of all Christian sects will change over time, as they have in the past, these beliefs will always be in conflict, and they can't all be right. So most likely all or wrong, no matter what sect or what time period you're talking about.
And I've only mentioned Christianity so far. There are other major religions, all with their own sects of differing beliefs, and then there are a huge host of minor religions.
All the New Testament writers wrote that God resurrected Jesus. I objectively know that.
You mean the Gospels, or are you claiming that every single NT writer "wrote that God resurrected Jesus." Did they really write that "God resurrected Jesus"? Didn't they more write things like, "He is risen", leaving open who did it?
I subjectively believe that they weren’t lying and were actually correct. We can say that about any historical document. We can read about the Battle of Hastings In 1066. We objectively know that the authors wrote the accounts as they did, but we subjectively come to our individual conclusions about whether the details are correct or whether the battle happened at all.
You can label the Bible a "historical document" if you like, but interpreted historically it is obviously a religious book where some of it (mostly the OT) contains some history that can be substantiated.
No one could reasonably question whether the Battle of Hastings "happened at all" - there's far, far too much evidence. If you want to draw a comparison to some event in the Bible that actually happened you could try Babylon conquering Judah around 600 BC, something for which there is good extra-Biblical evidence. But most events of the Bible are completely missing any extra-Biblical support, including almost everything related to Jesus.
Interesting when you say that you don’t have a position and then in the same sentence tell us what your position is.
My use of the word "position" in two different ways was unfortunate. I was responding to where you say something like your beliefs could be right, mine could be right, or we could both be wrong. What I was trying to say is that I don't have beliefs in the same way that you do. Where I have no evidence I have no beliefs, while you believe plenty of things without evidence.
Really what you are talking about is nothing but the difference between things we know objectively and things we believe subjectively.
I don't think the difference between knowledge based upon evidence and what you're labeling "subjective belief" should be minimized.
You made an assertion without any evidence to support it,...
You're referring to where I said, "If morality came from religion then wouldn't our jails be filled with atheists instead of Christians?" This is true. How was I to know you didn't know this and would want evidence? Anyway, why are you saying this now since Tangle's Message 292 preceded mine:
Tangle in Message 292 writes:
You mean they aren't.
No they're not. Atheists are under-represented in US prisons.
RationalWiki has an article on the topic: Atheism in prison that is fairly balanced, exploring various explanations. Patheos has a short article: Atheists Now Make Up 0.1% of the Federal Prison Population. Here's another article from TheHuminist: Nonbelievers behind Bars: Does the US Prison System Privilege Religious Inmates?
...but I don’t frankly see it as being germane anyway.
Of course it's germane. In your Message 261 you asked, "Where does the sense of morality come from in a materialistic world?" I've provided an answer. Obviously morality doesn't come from religion.
Well, there likely is one right and true path for everyone but we aren’t all in agreement about which path that is.
You know that religionists only have subjective beliefs that differ widely not just between people but between the same people at different times in their lives, you know you don't have objective knowledge, and yet you say this? Gee, that's hard to fathom. The evidence seems to pretty clearly be against there being a "one, right and true path for everyone."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by GDR, posted 10-15-2017 11:01 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by jar, posted 10-15-2017 3:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 10-15-2017 7:30 PM Percy has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34046
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 344 of 1540 (821940)
10-15-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Percy
10-15-2017 3:19 PM


Re: Evolving theology
Percy writes:
GDR writes:
All the New Testament writers wrote that God resurrected Jesus. I objectively know that.
You mean the Gospels, or are you claiming that every single NT writer "wrote that God resurrected Jesus." Did they really write that "God resurrected Jesus"? Didn't they more write things like, "He is risen", leaving open who did it?
Of course the Book of James doesn't even mention Jesus' death or resurrection or even his divinity but rather seems to use "Lord" as an honorific or title similar to Prince or Dear Leader.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Percy, posted 10-15-2017 3:19 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 345 of 1540 (821941)
10-15-2017 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Phat
10-15-2017 1:25 PM


Re: Evolving theology
Phat writes:
Let's get back to your signature. ----- For some of us, doing justice, being honest, and loving kindness are all we can honestly do. We have no idea what it means to walk humbly with God. My question is this: Is it important to at least being open about one's willingness to do so..without any concept of Who it is they would even be walking with?
IMHO humility is about doing the right thing without congratulating yourself on what wonderful person you are, regardless of belief. It is about doing the right thing simply because that is where your heart is. As a Christian we should consider that in doing the right thing we realize that ultimately it isn't because we are good, but because God is good, and it is Him who gave us the desire to do the right thing.
Here is a quote from Tangle's favourite theologian. It is from the book "The Last Battle" of the Narnia series, with Aslan, (the lion), being a Christ figure and Tash representing an evil figure.
quote:
So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable tree till lo! In a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like an ostrich, and his size was an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Langour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert.
Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him.
But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.
Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.
Dost thou understand , Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 1:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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