The Tension of Faith

I suppose it could be reverse-engineered that way - but what it actually says is that God magically poofed the material objects into existence with His words. Notice that in verse 5 Enoch was magically poofed out of existence instead of dying. That doesn't imply anything about atoms.

Atoms make the most sense to me. They are what makes up things that are seen and yet they themselves are unseen.

Seems to me the fallen mind must possess a mere shadow of its original powers of understanding and knowledge. Since the regeneration of the new birth gives us the intuitive knowledge of the basic truths of the Christian revelation, there must originally have been an ability to intuitively grasp all kinds of truths we no longer possess.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Conclusion follows from premise and that is certainly a very simple logical point. You don't need to believe the premise for the logic to be true.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Oh look, no answer. Looks like the Bible has defeated Faith and her God yet again.And just as a reminder, the key question is:

I don't think it's talking about physical things. If you read the whole chapter, as well as the end of Chapter 10 and the beginning of Chapter 12, it reads as if it is talking about the unseen future.

quote:

---

Hebrews 10
23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one anotherand all the more as you see the Day approaching.

​

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

​

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

​

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

---

quote:

---

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

​

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

​

4 By faith Abel brought God...

​

5 By faith Enoch was taken...

​

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family...

​

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going....

​

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

​

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

---

quote:

---

Hebrews 12
12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

---

The lesson is to keep your faith and press on even when you're not sure what the outcome is going to be. God is in charge of what is going to happen an He'll make it right if you stand by your faith and do the right thing.That's my take on it.It doesn't have anything to do with atoms, or in Faith's case granting believers special Bible-reading powers.

You're right, it does have to work as a sign to Ahaz, and I'm sure it does but I don't care to research it right now. Even so, it is definitely a prophecy of the virgin birth of the Messiah, because the New Testament says so, and the traditional Church says so, for a couple of millennia already, and they have a lot more authority than any unbeliever.

quote:

---

You're right, it does have to work as a sign to Ahaz, and I'm sure it does but I don't care to research it right now

---

And you have put a lot of effort into trying to deny it. So much for your "regenerate mind"

quote:

---

Even so, it is definitely a prophecy of the virgin birth of the Messiah, because the New Testament says so, and the traditional Church says so, for a couple of millennia already, and they have a lot more authority than any unbeliever.

---

The truth isn't decided by authority. Whoever wrote the Gospel According to Matthew took a small part of Isaiah out of context. Read in context it doesn't appear to refer to a virgin birth at all (nobody claims one happened in the reign of Ahaz), or the Messiah (nobody claims that the child born then was the Messiah) - and if there's some hidden meaning it is very well hidden. And simply appealing to dubious authorities (and they certainly are dubious!) doesn't help that.

Matthew took nothing out of context. The New Testament is all God's word. You don't get a vote.

quote:

---

Matthew took nothing out of context

---

Obviously wrong. You should try actually studying the Bible sometime, if you are capable of it. (And let's not forget that you were aggressively wrong about Isaiah 7 for some time, before you call that a personal attack)

quote:

---

The New Testament is all God's word

---

According to your idols. The actual books of the New Testament make no claim to be "all God's word". Not one of them.

quote:

---

You don't get a vote.

---

The truth isn't decided by voting either.

Too funny.We get to read and we have the great gift from the Garden of Eden, to know right from wrong and so know that the author of Matthew took pieces parts out of context and tried to pretend it was whole cloth. It seems lots of the rubes even bought it.

That makes a lot of sense, but my guess is that that passage has had an interpretation for centuries, before we knew about atoms. I just took a look over at BibleHub's interpretation of Hebrews 11:3, they have the commentary from several sources, and it looks like the most common interpretation is along the lines of the universe of things not having a worldly origin.--Percy

I don't think I've ever seen your "reading" of the Bible on any subject even once approach reasonableness. Matthew is a lot smarter and more honest than you by a long loooooooong shot. The Bible is God's word and it will be your judge in the end.

Too funny Faith.The difference is I am honest about what the Bible actually says while Biblical Christians just make shit up and deny the Bible says what it says.If the Bible is God's word then God can't get the story straight, is often factually wrong and takes passages out of context.The reality that the Bible actually contains what it contains and says what it says is not a problem for me, because I know it is human words, not God's words. That's why there really isn't "The Bible" but rather only the Bible that is chosen by particular chapters of Club Christian.

Wait and see.