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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Faith writes: If introducing the Texas puma into the Florida panther population "helped," that means the panther was not completely genetically depleted and was able to breed with the puma,... Where on Earth did you get the idea that genetic depletion means inability to breed with other members of the same species? The Florida panther is a cougar, and cougars can breed with each other. The various populations of cheetah spread around the world can breed with each other. Because, like, they're the same species and all.
Yes it would possess only the same genes and alleles, but depending on how different the gene frequencies are it could possess strikingly different phenotypic characteristics because of different combinations of those genes/alleles, a different frequency of heterozygosity or homozygosity for different traits and so on. It is the changed gene frequencies that bring about the new characteristics of a new population, and that alone is capable of creating all the different species in a ring species without a single mutation. You can't get a new species just by manipulating gene frequencies - that just results in new breeds. It's why breeders can't create new species. Only over long time periods are enough mutations produced and distributed to result in the genetic incompatibility that truly defines a new species.
As for mutations, just how often do you get a brand new trait from a mutation anyway?...not much to hang macroevolution on. A single mutation is microevolution and would be unlikely in the extreme to produce the significant change necessary for speciation. Macroevolution is the accumulation over time of many mutations sufficient to produce new species.
I guess the idea is that the new fur color if selected would make a new species of rabbit. No one is suggesting or has ever suggested that fur color by itself defines a new species. --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I did not say there would be any problem breeding between members of the same species, I thought the puma and panther were different species that could still interbreed. If not, my mistake.
You can't get a new species just by manipulating gene frequencies - that just results in new breeds. I totally absolutely disagree. All it takes in some species to come to a point where interbreeding is impossible is the loss of genetic diversity through selection over a number of daughter populations. ABE: This would be the same genetic situation as the cheetah's and the cheetah cannot interbreed with other cats.
It's why breeders can't create new species. Only over long time periods are enough mutations produced and distributed to result in the genetic incompatibility that truly defines a new species. Nonsense. For one thing mutations are only variations on existing alleles and if new gene frequencies of those existing alleles aren't enough to lead to genetic incompatibility, there's no reason to think a functioning allele brought about by mutation would behave differently.
A single mutation is microevolution and would be unlikely in the extreme to produce the significant change necessary for speciation. A mutation is NOT microevolution, it's a single change in a single allele, utterly lost in a population unless selected. EVOLUTION REQUIRES SELECTION, requires the proliferation of that mutation at the very least, and OF COURSE speciation isn't going to happen from one mutation. DUH and a half. Speciation isn't what I'm focused on but it could happen from extreme reduction of genetic diversity in a whole population with new gene frequencies of alleles whether mutated alleles or not.
Macroevolution is the accumulation over time of many mutations sufficient to produce new species. Oh blithering nonsense. This does not happen. Even if you got all new phenotypes you'd still have the problem of loss of GENETIC diversity due to SELECTION, which is necessary to the formation of new species. Mutations alone cannot produce new species. Selection is necessary to evolution whether the genetic material is built in or produced by mutations, and when you have selection you have the replacement of some alleles by the new set of high frequency alleles, always always always the necessary reduction in genetic diversity brought about by selection/evolution. I was asking for a picture of what people have in mind when they keep saying mutations can overcome the necessary loss of genetic diversity brought about by selection.' Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
Right... Figured 1 of you would step into it... Testing is always fun.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
The alleles contain the genes. Different sequences of alleles come together and wallah you have a gene. And obviously an allele is not a gene as 1 by itself is not a gene. The video does a great job of explaining not only that point but the point of drift.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsgYxJN0xx8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You don't know what you are talking about. An allele is a FORM of a gene. Sheesh.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
Incorrect. A combination of alleles are a gene. Hence alleles are contained in the gene. The gene released that stimulates the cells to do what they do in order for a trait to be seen is because multiple alleles come together...
Just like multiple chromosomes come together to make up the DNA. The DNA contains the chromosomes. Edited by DOCJ, : err Edited by DOCJ, : err Edited by DOCJ, : err Edited by DOCJ, : err
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
I see what is happening in our discussion. It's a language issue. I will restate my point differently.
The alleles make up the gene. They are contained within the gene. However, they are not THE gene. Just like chromosomes are not THE DNA. Edited by DOCJ, : err
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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The gene is only a location, it's the alleles that provide the genetic codes.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
I don't believe I have any issues with that point.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
You never responded to 234.
The silenced gene/s are merely being drifted/recessed as in the video. The information is not lost. Unless you can provide some data showing your point, there is no reason to believe a gene is lost.. Drift can occur for thousands of years. Then people are like, HEY where did you get that blond hair, or those blue eyes. Nobody has those in our family (that they know). Hence no lost information. At least that is what they taught and I confirmed in college. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsgYxJN0xx8
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I thought the puma and panther were different species that could still interbreed. If not, my mistake. Does it not sometimes bother you that you make so many basic mistakes in your pronouncements? Does it ever occur to you, perhaps, that a lot more of your opinions and beliefs may be wrong?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I did answer you. I said I was talking about alleles being lost, not genes.
And PaulK said the same about alleles in Message 298:
...Certainly alleles are removed from the population - fixation of an allele is, by definition, the loss of all others .... Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't care about the difference between a puma and a panther. It's a side issue.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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I don't care about the difference between a puma and a panther. It's a side issue. The issue on which I commented was how many basic fundamental errors you make in your posts. Making a lot of obvious mistakes casts doubt on everything else one says--at least in the sciences.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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DOCJ Inactive Member |
Show it using a reliable source of info, that genes are lost. There are 4 types of alleles and They exist inside no matter the gene. Show that the sequence/gene location is lost VS it just being moved.😁
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