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Author | Topic: Can mutation and selection increase information? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
Vlad writes: Once again, in the world of asexual reproduction, individuals — say, bacteria — are more or less fit. Yet the world of sex is just another pair of shoes: no individual per se is able to reproduce there. Regrettably, only heterosexual (conspecific) pairs are. Wily Mother Nature The reproductive success of a bee colony is often dependent on the sterile workers who never reproduce. Group fitness and kin selection in social sexual species is also of importance. You don't have to reproduce in order to pass your genes along. You can also increase the fitness of your relatives.
Some 7-8 decades ago, the founding fathers of the so-called Modern Synthesis had no idea of system properties, system effects, etc. And so they, in good conscience, operated with the anecdotic idea of individual fitness. Let them do. Yet we live in the second decade of XXI century, and reasoning upon the individual fitness, as regards sexual reproduction, appears sheer ferity. Then once evolutionary theorists acknowledged invalidity of the individual fitness idea, the whole Modern Synthesis construction would collapse like a rickety house of cards. So sad The feather display for a single male peacock can influence the distribution of that peacock's genes. You are wrong. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2569 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
You can have a search that is both goal directed and random.
Suppose there are 100 boxes on a table and I'm told there is a chocolate bar in one of them. I go to the table and start opening boxes at random. I have a goal; I want the chocolate; but the search is random. Similarly when mutations increase in selected regions in response to an environmental stress there is a good chance that the goal is to adapt to the stressor, even if the mutations are essentially random. Since the hypermutation targets certain areas it is likely these areas have a higher probability of producing a favourable mutation. Conversely hypermutation in other areas of the genome are less likely to produce a mutation favourable to adaptation. This is a hypothesis. There is insufficient evidence at this time to accept it, but there is even less evidence to reject it.
Keep in mind that in order for a mutation to affect fitness, it must affect the organisms ability to reproduce. So while a mutation that codes for the same amino acid may have energetic effects on a bacterium that may slow it's growth rate enough to give it a slight disadvantage compared to others without the mutation, it is unlikely to have a significant effect on larger organism such as humans.
Why not? We are all dependent for health on the correct ratios of many proteins, enzymes, hormones. If these are incorrect then we could suffer illness or a lack of fitness that could affect our ability to survive, attract a mate, and reproduce. A mutation in the germ cell will affect every cell in our body. In fact I have just such a condition.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9638 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
CRR writes: Suppose there are 100 boxes on a table and I'm told there is a chocolate bar in one of them. I go to the table and start opening boxes at random. I have a goal; I want the chocolate; but the search is random. If you want to make this analogy anything at all like mutation and selection you have to 1. Not know that there are either boxes or tables2. Not know that there could be chocolate in one of them 3. Not know how to open the boxes 4. Not know why you should try to open the boxes 5. Not know that most of the boxes will blow up and kill you if you do open them Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Vlad Junior Member (Idle past 2754 days) Posts: 27 Joined: |
Sapienti sat while Pressie’s got a salad in the head. Too bad.
Well, your trouble, guys, is that you still stay then — in the first half of the XX century. You do along with the founding fathers of the mainstream evolutionary doctrine, and you follow their arithmetical mode of thinking. Individual fitness Immaculate conception A scream! How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? But why, anybody is free to stay where he/she pleases. Who cares?
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JonF Member (Idle past 495 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
You can have a search that is both goal directed and random. Yes. So what? We have plenty of evidence that the processes that increases mutation rate are not goal seeking. Naming wildly different processes doesn't affect that.
Similarly Not at all similarly. Analogies are not evidence. The two processes are totally disssimilar.
when mutations increase in selected regions in response to an environmental stress there is a good chance that the goal is to adapt to the stressor Not according to the evidence we have. Got any evidence for your claim? Didn't think so.
This is a hypothesis. There is insufficient evidence at this time to accept it, but there is even less evidence to reject it. What evidence have you studied to conclude that there is less evidence to reject it than for it? [multiple citations required] I'll start. Mutation as a Stress Response and the Regulation of Evolvability:
quote:{emphaisi added} *Remember that to biologists studying mutations "random" means "randiom with respect to fitness". Edited by JonF, : No reason given. Edited by JonF, : Fix bolding
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ringo Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Vlad writes:
YOUR trouble is that you don't pay any attention to rebuttals. Answer some posts and you may be taken seriously.
Well, your trouble, guys....
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1732 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
\[b\]random* oopsie
This is a hypothesis. There is insufficient evidence at this time to accept it, but there is even less evidence to reject it. What evidence have you studied to conclude that there is less evidence to reject it than for it? There are two aspects to the question as I see it:
I believe (my opinion) the answers are no and yes. The first ratio can even be lower and still have a greater second ratio. Further I believe (my opinion) this is an evolved mechanism, as organisms that do this will be selected over those that don't, and that it is a "burn the bridges," do-or-die, last ditch effort at survival. Enjoy * with regard to "fitness" ... ie survival Edited by RAZD, : * Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
CRR writes: You can have a search that is both goal directed and random. That doesn't change the fact that mutations are random with respect to fitness.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2569 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
RAZD writes: There are two aspects to the question as I see it:
I believe (my opinion) the answers are no and yes. The first ratio can even be lower and still have a greater second ratio. I believe (my opinion) the answers are maybe and yes. I suspect that if a part of the genome is targeted for hypermutation then the ratio could change, but I have no other evidence to support or refute that hypothesis at this time.
Further I believe (my opinion) this is an evolved mechanism, as organisms that do this will be selected over those that don't, and that it is a "burn the bridges," do-or-die, last ditch effort at survival.
Which would I think make it a goal directed random search.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2569 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
JonF writes:
Good. at least we can agree on that.
You can have a search that is both goal directed and random. Yes. So what?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1732 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Further I believe (my opinion) this is an evolved mechanism, as organisms that do this will be selected over those that don't, and that it is a "burn the bridges," do-or-die, last ditch effort at survival.
Which would I think make it a goal directed random search. Only if the 'goal' is to mutate, and that doesn't change the "with respect to fitness" issue
RAZD writes: There are two aspects to the question as I see it:
I believe (my opinion) the answers are no and yes. The first ratio can even be lower and still have a greater second ratio. I believe (my opinion) the answers are maybe and yes. If the rate of unchecked mutations doubles and the proportion of beneficial with respect to fitness mutations falls to 51% you still come out ahead, at the cost of a lot of failure and lost energy in reproduction. This is how turning on hypermutation would be a beneficial trait that gets selected, without it being goal oriented. If it were goal oriented then why isn't it turned on permanently? If it's an evolved stress response mechanism, then it only occurs during stress. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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JonF Member (Idle past 495 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
IOW it's a story you made up, you like, and is contradicted by the evidence.
I have no other evidence to support or refute that hypothesis at this time This is a hypothesis. There is insufficient evidence at this time to accept it, but there is even less evidence to reject it. Make up your mind.
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Taq Member Posts: 10385 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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CRR writes: I believe (my opinion) the answers are maybe and yes. I suspect that if a part of the genome is targeted for hypermutation then the ratio could change, but I have no other evidence to support or refute that hypothesis at this time.
I think you know that we need more than "I suspect" and "I believe".
CRR writes: Which would I think make it a goal directed random search. That would be an oxymoron. If it is a random search then it is not goal directed. Goal directed means making specific mutations to a specific gene with a known specific outcome. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If they occur in response to environmental stress and the increased mutation rate helps the organism to adapt to that stress then possibly it is goal directed. At the genotypic level, they don't even have to be random in that they're not necessarily stochastic - but that still doesn't mean that they aren't random from the perspective at the phynotipic level.
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Pressie Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Vlad writes: It would have been wonderful if I knew everything. So, what's new?
Sapienti sat while Pressie’s got a salad in the head. Too bad.
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