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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 283 of 349 (814106)
07-04-2017 1:23 PM


Demons do not exist
As more and more people grow away from Christianity, why is the occurrence of demon possession also declining? Shouldn't it be going up?

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 4:27 AM Stile has replied
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 304 of 349 (814483)
07-10-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
07-07-2017 4:27 AM


Re: Demons do not exist
Phat writes:
Not if the outcome is in line with Satan. Why possess someone who is already a non-believer?
Ah, I see.
So, really, if I converted and became a Christian, it would result in more demon possession.
So to do my part and help prevent demon possession... I should remain an atheist and definitely stay away from all of Christianity.
Are you sure you like the logic behind that sort of answer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 4:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 308 of 349 (814507)
07-10-2017 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Why demons do not exist
Phat writes:
Is the whole idea of demons as illogical as the idea of God?
I don't know about 'illogical' but 'as unlikely?' certainly yes.
I'm not an atheist because I logically think God does not exist based on some built up theory.
I'm an atheist because the ideas of God (and equally, demons) look remarkably similar to all other ideas of humans that are imaginary and not-true.
  • They do not have repeatable observations
  • Those who do believe, seem to want to believe
  • There doesn't seem to be any valid searching into the actual truth, it's more based on "accept and go from there!" rather than "well, if you look at this and this and this that we can all see... the only conclusion is this one... does anyone disagree?"
  • There are promises of gifts or making life easier or better or protecting you from things that you can't detect or things that no one has ever been protected from in all of history (even those within the actual belief!)
  • There are promises of "no costs" (except for your tithing, or donations, or your time, or your integrity by having you accept some things without questioning them...)
  • Stories are always anecdotal and vague and overly-exaggerated (like "omni-everything!")
  • Questions on the stories or the "costs" are never answered and generally frowned upon
  • There doesn't seem to be a positive difference to note about the lives of those religiously inclined and the lives of those not religiously inclined when looking at populations in general
  • Authoritative (or sometimes just 'loud') leaders/promoters tend to be afraid to say "I don't know" or "we don't have a reliable answer for that" and instead rely on empty sayings like "Don't worry, there's a plan and it'll be taken care of" or "The Lord works in mysterious ways!"
  • There never seems to be any limits... it's always a 'cure-all!' or 'fix-everything!' solution. Yet none of the followers are cured of everything or have everything fixed.
  • When a valid, but mundane, solution is obvious... the group is reluctant to speak of it or investigate it
  • There is a sense that "all actions/words/thoughts" must be done in accordance to the belief
  • Open and honest discussion or investigation seems to be frowned upon
These all point towards a strategy of "alternative motivation" other than the perceived claim to 'help people' or 'do good.'
If you want to help people, or do good... do you really need any of the parts than come in conflict with any of the above issues I've presented?
If you truly want to help people, or do good... why is that not the priority? Why is "belief" the priority?
This belies the fact that helping people or doing good is actually not the priority. In which case... why should anyone ever bother with it at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 310 of 349 (814509)
07-10-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:
Demon possession probably IS going up with the decline of Christianity and especially the influx of eastern pagan religions into America since the seventies.
Is that a threat? Because I'm not scared.
If not and you mean it as a fact... can you show me how it's true so we can do something about it?
If you can't show how it's true... why do you even think that it's true?
It's simply unrecognized because "rational" humanity denies it.
I don't deny it.
I simply don't see anything that actually shows it's happening. With a complete lack of a reason to accept it... I do not accept it.
You can be the first to offer me the truth, though. Please show me a demon possession or what you think is the most-reliable-way to convince me that they actually do exist.
It's probably the cause of most mental illnesses
This is not true.
I don't know a lot about mental illness compared to a professional (like Larni).
But I do know a lot about mental illness compared to the average population in western society.
And I know more than enough to know that this is false.
it's certainly the cause of bizarre serial murders and many sexual aberrations
Again, no, it's not.
But you can convince me otherwise, if you can show that what you say is true. Just present your best-scenario that shows the truth of your words. I'll read it, I promise. We can talk about it.
and it's also very likely that the great world tyrants were possessed.
Wrong again.
Thinking that mental illness has a significant influence from demons is exactly the same thing as thinking that getting sick has a significant influence from demons.
They are both not true.
There is one big difference though:
About getting sick: Most people understand that germs and bacteria exist and how they can infect us and cause us to get sick.
About mental illness: Most people do not understand that brains are not all exactly the same or that some people can have experiences different from others or that some people react to the same experiences differently. This failure to understand these concepts lead to a failure to understand the mundane explanations for mental illness - ie "How Brains Function."
People who were ignorant about germs and bacteria causing sickness are exactly the same as people who are ignorant about how brain functionality causes mental illness.
I can show you germs and bacteria.
I can show you brain functionality and how it causes mental illness.
Can you show me anything about demon possession?
Can you show me anything about demon existence?
Talk of demons only does one thing - wastes the time that could be spent focusing on the real issue that can actually be corrected or mitigated with proper care.
Just like talk of demons only wastes time in treating people getting sick.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 3:14 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 316 of 349 (814523)
07-10-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
07-10-2017 3:14 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:
Any time someone tries to tell you about it you discount their testimony.
I've never discounted any testimony.
I just put it in the pile of similar testimony.
Your testimony about demons goes right beside the testimony of mental illness.
The testimony of mental illness is currently larger.
Just as the testimony for germs and bacteria is currently larger than demons causing sickness.
and why would you see demon possession in them when you've been convinced otherwise?
I'd see demon possession anywhere you can actually show it.
You seem to admit that you cannot show it, though.
This doesn't mean I won't accept it if you could show it.
It just means that you are unable to show it.
You're awfully sure of yourself for someone who has zip evidence for your assertions.
I apologize.
Did you know that a lot of psychopaths can be identified as being a psychopath simply by looking at their brains on imaging technology?
Did you know that most of the 'serial murderers' you speak of are also psychopaths?
Did you know that some one who is not a psychopath can become one if they suffer brain damage that ends up making their brain look similar to other psychopaths?
That is very strong evidence for mental illness as a function of the brain.
Did you know that DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?
Did you know that Schizophrenia is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?
If mental issues like DID and Schizophrenia could not be treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care... I would not give them such credence.
However, since they can, why do you not see that as evidence of mental illness being affected by brain function?
I tried to be a help to him in the years before he died and became afraid of him because of his strange ideas.
What sort of help did you try to give him?
Did you help him seek drug treatment? How many different ones did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different types as suggested by a psychiatrist, each taken for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you help him seek therapy? How many different therapists did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different therapists, each for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you try to help him yourself? (If you did without the proper medical attention, you likely didn't help much. Not because you're not qualified, but because - as a sister - your relationship to him would already discount how helpful you could actually be.)
There were many things in the past that are now known to be... less than helpful... the improvements in the field have been rather large in the last many years.
Sometimes psychotics get "commands" to murder people and that sort of thing, sometimes to kill themselves, or their children perhaps. I may extrapolate from these extremes to less dangerous ideation, but there is plenty of bizarre ideation in many mental illnesses that I think should be considered to be demonic.
Those examples are not extremes.
Those examples are not bizarre.
Those examples are not demonic.
The idea that you seem to think so indicates that perhaps you were not exposed to the wealth of information around the subject of mental illness available in certain areas today. It most likely was not your fault, either.
I knew a lot about psychology and I absolutely despised brain theory
Either those 2 things meant very different things when they were presented to you, or your 'psychology knowledge' is basically useless as the field now understands.
Otherwise brain has nothing to do with how the mind works.
Then how do you explain changes in how the mind works when the brain is changed? In the same person, even?
How do you explain people with very similar 'minds' when their brains are very similar using imaging technology?
These things are very strong evidence that the 'mind' is specifically based (and likely "only" based) on the brain.
Funny, I'd say that focusing on physical causes wastes the important time needed to understand the supernatural nature of some phenomena.
You can say that all you'd like.
The recent advances in being-able-to-help-people has increased dramatically once we understood how important the brain and physical causes are for the mind.
It is staggering and horrific how many people are helped today with this understanding vs. how many people were... discarded... before, without it.
The evidence, again, seems to be against your opinion.
Physical components do not at all eliminate spiritual causes.
They seem to eliminate "demon possession" just fine.
In fact, the more and more physical components we study and learn about and help people with... the less and less "demon possession" we seem to run into.
You seem to think that this evidence indicates that more demon possessions are occurring and that the demons have just moved into a completely covert mode such that they can choose to no longer be detected.
Sounds a bit too much like back-tracking and covering up your favourite explanation in the face of being able to help people who need it.
Why not just help more people?
Why not just accept the ideas that help more people?
If those ideas start helping less people... I promise... I'll trample them into the ground with you.
But so far, these ideas are just helping more and more and more people. Loved ones, like your brother, are getting help because of these ideas. As long as it works, why not let these people get help?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 3:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 318 of 349 (814625)
07-11-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
07-10-2017 4:12 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:
What kind of "help" are you talking about?
The kind where people get better.
Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness.
No, they don't.
Mostly they use a combination of drugs and therapy to assess and mitigate each person's individual needs.
Mental illness isn't like broken arms. You can't put the same cast on every arm. Every different person will need a cast in a different area (sometimes multiple areas) to help their individually 'broken arm' when talking about mental health.
My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.
Why do you think a demon would be affected by drugs your brother took?
We've already established that your knowledge (and personal experiences) with mental illness are outdated and largely obsolete.
This is the time to learn how it actually works.
Everyone agrees that doing things the way you just described is a horrible way to treat people.
The treatment and care of patients dealing with mental illness has grown leaps and bounds from what you are describing.
And it definitely has nothing to do with demons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
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