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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 133 of 182 (813775)
06-30-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by New Cat's Eye
06-30-2017 11:50 AM


NCE writes:
There's some studies that would disagree:
Yup, I'm fully aware of how beliefs can become a prophylactic or placebo allowing some people to deal with the underlying problems of society.
However, I think that rather than have a pretend sky-daddy make you feel a little bit better about the here and now - opium of the masses - it's better to remove the underlying causes - stress, alcohol, lack of excercise, immigration stress etc etc.
If you look at those countries that have managed to chuck away their superstitions - such as Scandanavia - they are fairer and happier societies. People that live in fair and happy societies live longer and better without the superfluous belief system that tells them that life might be shit now but just believe in this particular magic and when you're dead it'll all be ok.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2017 11:50 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2017 11:17 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 135 of 182 (813856)
07-01-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by New Cat's Eye
07-01-2017 11:17 AM


NCE writes:
So then you're giving up on your thesis?
I've hardly started. The fact that some people find consolation in a fantasy, doesn't make their beliefs real nor does it deal with the underlying causes of their problems. If you deal with the cause, the placebo is no longer required and we can get on with doing more useful things.
I removed causes like those after I became religious.
Well if you're lucky the placebo may last. If not, there's always Prozac.
and the evidence shows that being religious is associated with not having those causes.
It does no such thing. You'll have to work a lot harder to demonstrate that.
Thinking that supports your thesis would be illogical and irrational.
Crap. It's evidence that religious belief is not necessary to feel good about life.
That just looks like you displaying your personal prejudice and bias against religion.
Not only does it look like it, I can confirm that I am giving my opinion. I do have a bias against religion, like I have a bias against fascism, nationalism, headaches and sushi.
I'll consider your thesis refuted.
I'm sure you do. You appear to have joined the irrationals.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2017 11:17 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2017 8:30 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 07-03-2017 8:53 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 136 of 182 (813858)
07-01-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by New Cat's Eye
07-01-2017 11:17 AM


Here's a chunk of Sam Harris
quote:
While most Americans believe that getting rid of religion is an impossible goal, much of the developed world has already accomplished it. Any account of a god gene that causes the majority of Americans to helplessly organize their lives around ancient works of religious fiction must explain why so many inhabitants of other First World societies apparently lack such a gene. The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth.
According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Other analyses paint the same picture: The United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious literalism and opposition to evolutionary theory; it is also uniquely beleaguered by high rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD infection and infant mortality.
The same comparison holds true within the United States itself: Southern and Midwestern states, characterized by the highest levels of religious superstition and hostility to evolutionary theory, are especially plagued by the above indicators of societal dysfunction, while the comparatively secular states of the Northeast conform to European norms.
Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality--belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction; societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God; each factor may enable the other; or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health.
Countries with high levels of atheism also are the most charitable in terms of giving foreign aid to the developing world. The dubious link between Christian literalism and Christian values is also belied by other indices of charity. Consider the ratio in salaries between top-tier CEOs and their average employee: in Britain it is 24 to 1; France 15 to 1; Sweden 13 to 1; in the United States, where 83% of the population believes that Jesus literally rose from the dead, it is 475 to 1.
Many a camel, it would seem, expects to squeeze easily through the eye of a needle.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2017 11:17 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 138 of 182 (813906)
07-02-2017 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
07-01-2017 8:30 PM


NCE writes:
If the underlying causes of the problems are dealt with, who are you to say what did or did not do it?
I'm a guy on a forum giving an opinion. who are you?
And I'm responding to the evidence that you gave of religious belief helping to reduce stress etc. I'd say that removing the causes of stress itself would be a better plan for all the people rather than just those who have fallen for the placebo of a particular belief system.
I doubt that I'll defeat you're prejudice and bias.
And I yours. But we've all agreed that that isn't our purpose here. Sam Harris has your position covered anyway.
Just before I switched off the radio this morning in disgust at the church service that had started, I heard the priest use the words 'we need to become a human sacrifice acceptable to god.' Well fuck you, I thought.
We spend a lot of time on these boards discussing religious belief in theoretical terms. I occasionally have to attend church services in various brands of Christian and Muslim settings for weddings and funerals. And what a pile of offensive, primitive superstitious, drivel we have to subordinate ourselves to during those seervices. Sit down, stand up, kneel down, worship him, be frightened of him, believe in him. 'This is his body and blood that was sacrificed for you.' And long riffs and rants of total crap made up by the idiot in fancy dress that we're asked to swallow whole. It turns my stomach - it's truly offensive.
The real stuff of worship needs to be discussed more.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2017 8:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 9:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 140 of 182 (813980)
07-03-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Stile
07-03-2017 8:53 AM


Stile writes:
Are you trying to say it's impossible for someone to find better support from religion than from objective scientific findings?
Obviously not. Wherever did you get that idea from?
Are you trying to say that it's impossible for such a person to exist?
Er, no. I'm beginning to think you're building a very large straw man.
God (or "religion" in more general terms) can provide such an "answer" for such people who need more of a "don't worry, that's taken care of" thought.
You're just repeating the 'opium of the people' stuff.
My postion is not that religion doesn't help some people sometimes. It's that because we know it's a fiction AND we know that social structures that don't have religions as their basal systems are better at making more people happier more of the time we'd be more sensible trying to build them. Particularly as we know they're dying anyway.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Stile, posted 07-03-2017 8:53 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Stile, posted 07-03-2017 11:19 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 142 of 182 (813995)
07-03-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 9:55 AM


NCE writes:
Yeah, which makes me wonder why you're focused on ridiculing a childish cartoon version of religion. But you admitted you're just biased so have fun with that.
I agree that it's both ridiculous and childish but it's not a cartoon version, it's the version I see and hear when I attend these services - in different denominations, though mainly Catholic and Anglican. I've no reason to believe that these services are anything out of the ordinary, in fact the reverse - they're pretty low key and liberal compared with some of the horrors I occasionally see from American evangelists.
The nonsense spouted at these services probably sounds reasonable to you, you've normalised it and it suits YOUR bias. But to an uninfected outsider it's crazed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 9:55 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 11:30 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 145 of 182 (814001)
07-03-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Stile
07-03-2017 11:19 AM


Stile writes:
I would only have issues on some sort of 'ban of religion' or something like that.
Banning religions doesn't work - otherwise I might just be tempted..... Getting them outside of all things state though is a different game.
They should not be in schools, they should have no political appointments (we have bishops in our second house), they shouldn't be turned to automatically when matters of so-called morality are being decided and they certainly shouldn't be given tax breaks. If we must have them, let them stand on their own two feet.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Stile, posted 07-03-2017 11:19 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 146 of 182 (814004)
07-03-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 11:30 AM


NCE writes:
It seems to me like you are seeing church as something that is done to you rather than something that you participate in.
Well it IS done to people. From childhood and people are forced to participate until they're old enough to see through the nonsense. When I attend these services it's something that is being done to me - I'm there only because a friend or relative wants me there so I put up with it.
It's like a child complaining about the chore of taking piano lessons instead of seeing the opportunity to learn to play music.
But of course if you think music is bullshit then the lessons aren't going to be anything but a chore.
What bollox. I'm not a child, I've learnt the same stuff everyone born into a religious family learns and having learned it and passed all the tests I found out that it was utter rubbish. It's just plain embarassing seeing adults behave that way.
It would be really interesting to post a transcript of a service, if I could stomach it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 11:30 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 11:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 148 of 182 (814022)
07-03-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 11:55 AM


NCE writes:
You're acting like one.
Well my dad's bigger than your dad so there, neh. (You really said that, wow.)
Well I'm proud of myself and my accomplishments
Good for you.
and I owe a lot to my religion.
And how would you know? Perhaps if you lived in Oslo and had never been troubled by irrational belief you could have acheived more.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 11:55 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 12:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 150 of 182 (814030)
07-03-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 12:58 PM


NCE writes:
Embracing God directly empowered me to make the changes to my life that I needed to make in order to survive.
Had you lived in a different/fairer/more welfare-based society you may not have encountered the problems that required the insertion of a fantasy to fix, or at least found a less crazy way of dealing with them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 12:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 2:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 152 of 182 (814042)
07-03-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 2:56 PM


NCE writes:
On the other hand, had we lived in a world where more people accepted God into their lives, then perhaps we wouldn't have these societies that cause these problems.
Unfortunately that's the world we came from and it didn't work out very well did it?
And no, polls on how many people claim membership to a religious group do not reflect how many people have God in their lives.
Don't know where this came from. Who cares about polls, we know what's happening to religious belief across the Western world - it's declining quickly. The USA is an absurd outlier, but even there it's on the way out.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:45 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 6:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 154 of 182 (814046)
07-03-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
07-03-2017 4:45 PM


Re: How Free Are We?
Phat writes:
You seem to love this statistic but it is not entirely conclusive.
It's entirely conclusive as it shows a long term decline in religiosity in developed countries. What else is there?
Religion Declining, Secularism Surging | HuffPost Religion
Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!
What is it with you guys - you actually hope for these things....?
Believers will not dissappear quite as fast as you think (and perhaps hope)
It can't disapear as fast as I'd hope - that would be tomorrow - but it's declining at a steady rate like it or not.
unless the doctrine of the Rapture is proven correct.
'The end of the world is nigh' has been chanted by the mindless for centuries - it's not, regardless of how much you'd like it.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 11:20 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 157 of 182 (814072)
07-04-2017 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 6:03 PM


Re:
NCE writes:
I've been a member of a religious group my whole life, but I've only recently embraced God.
It sounds like you do have a bad infection.
People are certainly not claiming membership to as many groups these days, but that's got its own problems in its own right. Turns out social media doesn't really cut it as being social. Going to church once a week is being an active member of a community, and there's a lot of benefit to that even if its all bullshit. Any community can work, but it does take communion. That may be worth considering as a unintented consequence of your dream of wiping out religion - that people will loose one of their sources of community.
Religion is wiping itself out. It's been exposed to the light. As I've pointed out several times now, societies get on just fine without religous communities - in fact better.
For me, I had to look past my self. Or maybe through myself. I'm convinced there's more in there than just me. I don't really know where it came from, but I was provided with the knowledge of what I had to do, and that gave me the strength to find the will to do it. And I'm getting it done.
I call it God, but I get that you don't like that word. I'm just saying that we should look for more than just ourselves for answers because it worked for me. Keep at terms with the facts, just don't stop at the self. Go further.
I know you're being sincere but to me that's a classic delusion. I don't want or need anything more than what's to be found here. I'm perfectly happy the way I am. I'm not seeking something to make my life seem more meaningful, everything is just fine thanks.
Of course everything can be improved, but it's down to us to sort out our own problems not depend on some imaginary being that can give us a happy time when dead.just wishful thinking.
And those church services - sheesh, if you ever needed evidence of what a pile of garbage belief is, just attend a few with 'new eyes' and ears.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 6:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-04-2017 8:42 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 159 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-04-2017 8:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 160 of 182 (814083)
07-04-2017 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by New Cat's Eye
07-04-2017 8:42 AM


NCE writes:
What exactly do you mean by "Religion"?
When people start challenging well known words it usually means they've got an axe to grind about them and prefer to use a definition they've just made up.
Seems that's you. You have discovered a 'personal' religion. That is you now think you have a personal relationship with the god of your choosing and are pushing away from standard definitions. This is pretty classical. Soon you'll beasking others to join you in your living room and starting a spin off group.
I don't think that "religion" is a thing that can really get wiped out
Neither do I. It'll just fade away naturally.
As long as we have free will, *cough* topic *cough*, and people keep having spiritual experiences, there's going to be religious beliefs around. I don't see that getting wiped out - even if people just stop admitting it in polls, and everyone claims devout atheism.
Sure, mental illness will carry on, hopefully lessened by more grown up societies.
When societies become atheistic, they don't go around being 'devout' about it anymore than they're devout about there being no pixies around. It's just not thought of or discussed - it's a non-issue. Everytime I visit the USA I'm staggered by how in your face religious belief is, I was asked just as a matter normal conversation which church I attended. That's utterly unheard of here. It's only on these boards that religion ever enters my mind. (Apart from the deaths and marriages of barely religiously minded friends.)
People don't go there for the beliefs, they're participating in a community.
That's not just wrong, it's also silly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-04-2017 8:42 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 162 of 182 (814099)
07-04-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
07-04-2017 11:20 AM


Re: How Free Are We?
Phat writes:
Here I disagree with you. As NCE asserts, organized religion may continue to fade away but personal belief will keep it alive.
Without priests and churches and schools teaching and reinforcing the mythology it dies a natuaral death.
I don't know where you're getting this idea that personal beliefs will supplant organised beliefs but it's certainly not the case in reality. When people drop religion they drop god. That's why the West is becoming atheist - they're not turning to a personal god, they're turning away from god.
I agree with NCE that its all about community.
it isn't, it's about god. Without god, those churches don't exist but communities do. You don't need gods for communities.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 11:20 AM Phat has not replied

  
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