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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 182 (812396)
06-16-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dogmafood
06-16-2017 8:04 AM


To make sense, there has to be more people than environments;
I don't know about 'more' but there has to be at least some input from the individual that originates with the individual.
Being a "product of your environment" looses practicality if every individual has their own unique environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dogmafood, posted 06-16-2017 8:04 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Dogmafood, posted 06-17-2017 9:59 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 122 of 182 (812460)
06-16-2017 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Tangle
06-16-2017 12:22 PM


But my thesis is that the sooner we come to terms with facts and start looking to ourselves for answers the more healthy we'll become. Kick away the crutch people!
I kicked my crutch, a substance, and when I looked to myself I found God and He helped me even further - and now I'm the healthiest I've ever been in my life.
I can think of nothing more stressful than truly believing that unless I follow some externally and supernaturally imposed dogma, I'm going to hell, or that some deity is reading my mind and watching my actions and will some day hold me account for that sneaky sexy thought.
I don't have either of those thoughts. My experiences with God have been nothing but open arms and loving advice.
When I first found God, I was a little scared that He was gonna be pissed at me - but I've never sensed that. Apparently He is always there and willing to help, but you do have to ask.
There has to be something important about us maintaining our Free Will - He doesn't seem to want to get all up in our faces, but instead waits for us to seek Him. I suppose He doesn't want to "make" you believe in Him, but instead wants you to want it. But I'm just speculating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2017 12:22 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2017 7:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 131 of 182 (813567)
06-28-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tangle
06-16-2017 7:44 PM


It sounds like you found another crutch.
I hear you, but I'm not leaning on it. I'm running around living my life
It's more like a light that is guiding my way rather than something that I have to carry around and rely on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2017 7:44 PM Tangle has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 182 (813739)
06-30-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Tangle
06-16-2017 12:22 PM


But my thesis is that the sooner we come to terms with facts and start looking to ourselves for answers the more healthy we'll become.
There's some studies that would disagree:
quote:
Religiosity has been associated with positive health outcomes. Hypothesized pathways for this association include religious practices, such as church attendance, that result in reduced stress.
Church attendance, allostatic load and mortality in middle aged adults | PLOS ONE
quote:
The relationship between religiosity and cardiovascular risk factors in Japan: a large—scale cohort study
In longitudinal data analyses, religiosity was associated with a lower likelihood of smoking and excessive alcohol consumption, and a higher likelihood of regular exercise and a lower incidence of diabetes over time. Individuals who were more religious were significantly more likely to have favorable health habits and fewer cardiovascular risk factors, except for a higher prevalence of overweight/obesity at baseline. Religiosity was also associated with better health habits over time and less likely to be associated with future diabetes but not with blood pressure or lipid levels.
quote:
This study considers how shared devotion to the Virgin of Guadalupe among Mexican immigrants in rural Mississippi buffers the effects of immigration stress. Rural destinations lacking social services can quickly compound the already stressful experience of immigration. Guadalupe devotion provides a way of coping with the daily life stressors of immigration. We test the hypothesis that high consonance in the cultural model of Guadalupan devotion will moderate the adverse health effects of immigration stress. Results indicate that as exposure to immigration stressors increased, well-being decreased among those with low consonance, while the effect was eliminated in those with high consonance. Findings demonstrate the advantage of expanding research on coping to incorporate complex models that consider religious and secular elements and also illustrate how a master symbol, characterized as a cultural model of coping with limited local distribution, yields health effects dissimilar to the mediation normally associated with consonance.
Just a moment...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2017 12:22 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Tangle, posted 06-30-2017 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 182 (813851)
07-01-2017 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Tangle
06-30-2017 12:32 PM


Yup, I'm fully aware of how beliefs can become a prophylactic or placebo allowing some people to deal with the underlying problems of society.
So then you're giving up on your thesis?
However, I think that rather than have a pretend sky-daddy make you feel a little bit better about the here and now - opium of the masses - it's better to remove the underlying causes - stress, alcohol, lack of excercise, immigration stress etc etc.
I removed causes like those after I became religious and the evidence shows that being religious is associated with not having those causes.
Granted, being religious doesn't have to mean having a pretend sky-daddy - so you can have that one.
If you look at those countries that have managed to chuck away their superstitions - such as Scandanavia - they are fairer and happier societies.
Thinking that supports your thesis would be illogical and irrational. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
People that live in fair and happy societies live longer and better without the superfluous belief system that tells them that life might be shit now but just believe in this particular magic and when you're dead it'll all be ok.
That just looks like you displaying your personal prejudice and bias against religion.
I'll consider your thesis refuted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Tangle, posted 06-30-2017 12:32 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 136 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 11:57 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 182 (813888)
07-01-2017 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Tangle
07-01-2017 11:43 AM


The fact that some people find consolation in a fantasy, doesn't make their beliefs real
Of course.
nor does it deal with the underlying causes of their problems.
If the underlying causes of the problems are dealt with, who are you to say what did or did not do it?
If you deal with the cause, the placebo is no longer required and we can get on with doing more useful things.
It doesn't matter if a placebo is required or not, and even with one you can still get on doing useful things.
But if religion does actually deal with the cause, then it isn't a placebo to begin with.
Well if you're lucky the placebo may last. If not, there's always Prozac.
Right, cause that is dealing with the underlying causes
It does no such thing. You'll have to work a lot harder to demonstrate that.
I doubt that I'll defeat you're prejudice and bias.
Crap. It's evidence that religious belief is not necessary to feel good about life.
I'm not saying it is.
Not only does it look like it, I can confirm that I am giving my opinion. I do have a bias against religion,
I thought so. Have a nice day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 11:43 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Tangle, posted 07-02-2017 3:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 182 (813982)
07-03-2017 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Tangle
07-02-2017 3:38 AM


The real stuff of worship needs to be discussed more.
Yeah, which makes me wonder why you're focused on ridiculing a childish cartoon version of religion. But you admitted you're just biased so have fun with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Tangle, posted 07-02-2017 3:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 11:09 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 182 (813998)
07-03-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Tangle
07-03-2017 11:09 AM


The nonsense spouted at these services probably sounds reasonable to you, you've normalised it and it suits YOUR bias. But to an uninfected outsider it's crazed.
It seems to me like you are seeing church as something that is done to you rather than something that you participate in.
It's like a child complaining about the chore of taking piano lessons instead of seeing the opportunity to learn to play music.
But of course if you think music is bullshit then the lessons aren't going to be anything but a chore.
...
I'll give you the American evangelists, though, those people are insane.
In my journey through finding God, I felt a strong pull to evangelize for all of about 2 hours

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 11:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 182 (814006)
07-03-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Tangle
07-03-2017 11:48 AM


What bollox. I'm not a child,
You're acting like one.
It's just plain embarassing seeing adults behave that way.
Well I'm proud of myself and my accomplishments and I owe a lot to my religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 11:48 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 12:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 182 (814027)
07-03-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Tangle
07-03-2017 12:50 PM


and I owe a lot to my religion.
And how would you know?
Embracing God directly empowered me to make the changes to my life that I needed to make in order to survive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 12:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 1:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 151 of 182 (814039)
07-03-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Tangle
07-03-2017 1:05 PM


On the other hand, had we lived in a world where more people accepted God into their lives, then perhaps we wouldn't have these societies that cause these problems.
And no, polls on how many people claim membership to a religious group do not reflect how many people have God in their lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 1:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 155 of 182 (814047)
07-03-2017 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Tangle
07-03-2017 3:56 PM


Unfortunately that's the world we came from and it didn't work out very well did it?
I don't know if those people accepted God into their lives, regardless of if they were members of a religious group or not.
I've been a member of a religious group my whole life, but I've only recently embraced God.
Don't know where this came from. Who cares about polls, we know what's happening to religious belief across the Western world - it's declining quickly.
You care about polls, that's what you're using as evidence of religion's declines.
The USA is an absurd outlier, but even there it's on the way out.
People are certainly not claiming membership to as many groups these days, but that's got its own problems in its own right. Turns out social media doesn't really cut it as being social. Going to church once a week is being an active member of a community, and there's a lot of benefit to that even if its all bullshit. Any community can work, but it does take communion. That may be worth considering as a unintented consequence of your dream of wiping out religion - that people will loose one of their sources of community.
But I'm not really arguing for being the member of a group.
quote:
But my thesis is that the sooner we come to terms with facts and start looking to ourselves for answers the more healthy we'll become.
For me, I had to look past my self. Or maybe through myself. I'm convinced there's more in there than just me. I don't really know where it came from, but I was provided with the knowledge of what I had to do, and that gave me the strength to find the will to do it. And I'm getting it done.
I call it God, but I get that you don't like that word. I'm just saying that we should look for more than just ourselves for answers because it worked for me. Keep at terms with the facts, just don't stop at the self. Go further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 3:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 5:17 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 156 of 182 (814048)
07-03-2017 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
07-03-2017 4:45 PM


Re: How Free Are We?
You seem to love this statistic but it is not entirely conclusive. Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!
Believers will not dissappear quite as fast as you think (and perhaps hope) unless the doctrine of the Rapture is proven correct.
I think part of my miscommunication with Tangle is from using the word "religion" loosely.
Like, there's organized religion - the membership groups.
Then there's your own personal belief system - your religion.
You can use polls to measure participation in organized religion. But you really can't measure people practicing their religions.
As long as weird shit is happening to people, and they're coming to each other to relate about it, there's going to be religion. People are going to believe stuff they can't know, and when they work together they'll deduce things that can form the basis of a belief system. It develops quite naturally. Getting rid of that is a naive and short-sighted goal.
On top of the wave of atheism that is crossing the cultures, what seems to be happening is that people are getting less organized into communities, in general. You just go online into the one big community (which ends up offering no real communion at all). That'll certainly drive down participation in the membership groups, but I suppose a lot more people could just not be allowing God into their lives any more.
Either way, I think there's some loss to be had from it. If they need it, people will start to notice what they're missing. They'll find it, and then they'll eventually start organizing again. And if not, then so be it.
Our will is free enough to make that a choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 182 (814080)
07-04-2017 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Tangle
07-04-2017 5:17 AM


It sounds like you do have a bad infection.
Turns out it's a good infection.
Religion is wiping itself out. It's been exposed to the light.
What exactly do you mean by "Religion"?
From my previous post, Message 156:
quote:
I think part of my miscommunication with Tangle is from using the word "religion" loosely.
Like, there's organized religion - the membership groups.
Then there's your own personal belief system - your religion.
You can use polls to measure participation in organized religion. But you really can't measure people practicing their religions.
As long as weird shit is happening to people, and they're coming to each other to relate about it, there's going to be religion. People are going to believe stuff they can't know, and when they work together they'll deduce things that can form the basis of a belief system. It develops quite naturally. Getting rid of that is a naive and short-sighted goal.
I don't think that "religion" is a thing that can really get wiped out - 'cause people are gonna do what they're gonna do. Organized religions, though, may dwindle into obscurity, I don't doubt that.
I know you're being sincere but to me that's a classic delusion.
Sure, that's the easiest position to take.
I don't want or need anything more than what's to be found here.
Understood.
I'm perfectly happy the way I am.
Really, perfectly? That sounds neat
I'm not seeking something to make my life seem more meaningful, everything is just fine thanks.
Well you're welcome I guess, but you did reply to me.
It's real easy to deal with shit that you just assume isn't real, but delusion or not, I've been convinced that it is and everything has gotten a lot better since.
As long as we have free will, *cough* topic *cough*, and people keep having spiritual experiences, there's going to be religious beliefs around. I don't see that getting wiped out - even if people just stop admitting it in polls, and everyone claims devout atheism.
Of course everything can be improved, but it's down to us to sort out our own problems not depend on some imaginary being that can give us a happy time when dead.just wishful thinking.
When I'm dead hasn't really crossed my mind yet. I'm much more concerned with the here and now.
And those church services - sheesh, if you ever needed evidence of what a pile of garbage belief is, just attend a few with 'new eyes' and ears.
People don't go there for the beliefs, they're participating in a community.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 5:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 9:03 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 182 (814082)
07-04-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Tangle
07-04-2017 5:17 AM


As I've pointed out several times now, societies get on just fine without religous communities
For how long? Do they end up turning back?
in fact better.
Where "better" is measured by:
quote:
life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality
Right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 5:17 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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