The TRVE history of the Flood...

All evolution is microevolution, ALL evolution occurs within breeding populations.Evolution and the accumulation of traits over successive generations is called anagenesis.When this occurs in different daughter populations isolated from each other, the accumulated changes will necessarily be different because (a) they will have different mutations and (b) the ecology they live would be different. This results results in speciation, or cladogenesis.Anagenesis and cladogenesis are MACROEVOLUTION -- the effect of evolution over generations. No Faith. The ToE explains the evidence: The Theory of Evolution (ToE), stated in simple terms, is that the process of anagenesis, and the process of cladogenesis, are sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the fossil record, from the genetic record, from the historic record, and from everyday record of the life we observe in the world all around us. It doesn't have to be believed, it can be assessed based on it's ability to explain the evidence. It hasn't failed yet.Enjoy

And at other locations you can show that the strata was laid down after tectonic disturbances occurred. Evidence you have denied rather than disproven.The point is that there is no way to tell if the past was measurably different from the present. The point is that tree rings and lake varves and ice layers all point to the past being very similar to the present, with no disruptions.The consilience between different types of data pointing to the same conclusions shows high confidence that the past was the same as the present.The data from radiometric dating matching the dating from layer counting shows high confidence that the past was the same as the present.There is NO evidence that it was different.Only a fool thinks they have proven a falsehood, especially one invalidated by mountains of evidence.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .

Yes, in the current version it is covered in Message 7, but the additional information and perspective will be good for the newer version. I also have links between the ice core dates, volcanoes and these ice cores.Enjoy

Now imagine all those organisms being alive at the same time ... how deep would they be?Bazillions of fossils is evidence of extreme old age and gradual deposition, with new growth living on top of the dead shells etc of the previous generations.That's also what we see now.Enjoy

And you know this because you were there ... or it came to you in a dream ...Or you are making it up to attempt to explain the fossils from bazillions of generations of life that lived and died and left their record of the natural history of life on earth, mixed with the gradual accumulation of sediments and radioactive isotopes ... oh wait, you didn't explain the isotopes ...This isn't proof, it is fantasy, simple fantasy.you lose.Enjoy

The irony.Fossils of trilobites sorted with radioactive isotopes in thick layers with different trilobite species and different isotopes, ... how does that happen? Billions of years of gradual accumulation, or magic?If you don't have a scientific explanation you are invoking magic.Lacking is any mixing of species and isotope sediments that would occur with a flying flood fantasy that terraforms the earth to current day appearance in less than a thousand years.Unless you invoke magic.If you don't have a scientific explanation you are invoking magic.Enjoy

You have proved nothing, as evidenced by the things you cannot explain with your model.The sorted trilobites
The sorted foraminifera
The sorted diatoms(Note that these are marine species living in the ocean environment)The sorted radioactive isotope quantitiesThe tree rings that count over 12,000 years of age for the earth
The varves that count over 35,000 years of age for the earthThe matching of 14C levels in tree rings from different dendrochronologies and the varvesThe consilience of different age measurements that use different systems but derive the same datesWhy are they all wrong in precisely the same degree every time Faith?Saying "There's something wrong with the dating methods" doesn't cut it Faith, you have to show what is wrong, how it is wrong and why they are all wrong in precisely the same degree every time.Until you do that you have proven nothing except that you are willfully denying reality.Enjoy

Proving you have no idea what you are talking about.

quote:

---

What are Trilobites?

​

Trilobites are remarkable, hard-shelled, segmented creatures that existed over 520 million years ago in the Earth's ancient seas. They went extinct before dinosaurs even came into existence, and are one of the key signature creatures of the Paleozoic Era, the first era to exhibit a proliferation of the complex life-forms that established the foundation of life as it is today. Although dinosaurs are the most well-known fossil animals, trilobites are also a favorite among those familiar with Paleontology (the study of the development of life on Earth), and are found in the rocks of all continents.

​

ANCIENT ARTHROPODS
Trilobites were among the early arthropods, a phylum of hard-shelled creatures with multiple body segments and jointed legs (although the legs, antennae and other finer structures of trilobites only rarely are preserved). They constitute an extinct class of arthropods, the Trilobita, made up of ten orders, over 150 families, about 5,000 genera, and over 20,000 described species. New species of trilobites are unearthed and described every year. This makes trilobites the single most diverse class of extinct organisms, and within the generalized body plan of trilobites there was a great deal of diversity of size and form. The smallest known trilobite species is under a millimeter long, while the largest include species from 30 to over 70 cm in length (roughly a foot to over two feet long!). With such a diversity of species and sizes, speculations on the ecology of trilobites includes planktonic, swimming, and crawling forms, and we can presume they filled a varied set of trophic (feeding) niches, although perhaps mostly as detritivores, predators, or scavengers. Most trilobites are about an inch long, and part of their appeal is that you can hold and examine an entire fossil animal and turn it about in your hand. Try that with your average dinosaur!

​

Trilobite Order Galleries
Click on any of the (Order names)* below to be sent to a gallery featuring photos of trilobites in that Order

​

agnostida	redlichiida	corynexochida	odontopleurida	lichida ​
phacopida	asaphida	proetida	harpetida	ptychopariida

---

* - (adapted to table format with links on names instead of pictures) Wrong. Note: "... ten orders, over 150 families, about 5,000 genera, and over 20,000 described species. New species of trilobites are unearthed and described every year. This makes trilobites the single most diverse class of extinct organisms, and within the generalized body plan of trilobites there was a great deal of diversity of size and form. ..."Some were bottom feeders others were swimmers. Some ate vegetation, some preyed on other organisms. And wrong again.

quote:

---

The coelacanths ... constitute a now rare order of fish that includes two extant species in the genus Latimeria: the West Indian Ocean coelacanth (Latimeria chalumnae) primarily found near the Comoro Islands off the east coast of Africa and the Indonesian coelacanth (Latimeria menadoensis).[2] They follow the oldest known living lineage of Sarcopterygii (lobe-finned fish and tetrapods), which means they are more closely related to lungfish, reptiles, and mammals than to the common ray-finned fishes. They are found along the coastlines of the Indian Ocean and Indonesia.[3][4] Since there are only two species of coelacanth and both are threatened, it is the most endangered order of animals in the world. The West Indian Ocean coelacanth is a critically endangered species.

​

Coelacanths belong to the subclass Actinistia, a group of lobed-finned fish related to lungfish and certain extinct Devonian fish such as osteolepiforms, porolepiforms, rhizodonts, and Panderichthys.[5] Coelacanths were thought to have become extinct in the Late Cretaceous, around 66 million years ago, but were rediscovered in 1938 off the coast of South Africa.[6][7]

​

The coelacanth was long considered a "living fossil" because it was believed to be the sole remaining member of a taxon otherwise known only from fossils, with no close relations alive,[5] and to have evolved into roughly its current form approximately 400 million years ago.[1] However, several recent studies have shown that coelacanth body shapes are much more diverse than previously thought.[8][9][10]

​

Another important discovery made from the genome sequencing, is that the coelacanths are still evolving today (but at a relatively slow rate). This contradicts the earlier thought that these creatures were "living fossils." What this means is that they were thought to be a prehistoric species that has remained unchanged over millions of years. With the discovery of their evolution, "living fossil" no longer seems like an appropriate term to describe these unique creatures.[34]

​

Reasons for such slow evolution by the coelacanths could be the lack of evolutionary pressure on these organisms. They have few predators, and they live deep in the Indian Ocean where conditions are said to be very stable. Without much pressure for these organisms to adapt to survive, the rate at which they need to evolve is much slower in comparison to other organisms.[34]

​

Taxonomy

​

The following is a classification of known coelacanth genera and families:[5][10][26][35][36][37][38]

​

• Order Coelacanthiformes
  • Family Whiteiidae (Triassic)
    • Piveteauia
    • Whiteia
  • Family Rebellatricidae (Triassic)
    • Rebellatrix
  • Family Coelacanthidae (Permian to Jurassic)
    • Axelia
    • Coelacanthus
    • Ticinepomis
    • Wimania
• Suborder Latimerioidei
  • Family Mawsoniidae (Triassic to Jurassic)
    • Alcoveria
    • Axelrodichthys
    • Chinlea
    • Diplurus
    • Garnbergia
    • Mawsonia
    • Parnaibaia
  • Family Latimeriidae L. S. Berg, 1940 (Triassic to Holocene)
    • Holophagus
    • Latimeria J. L. B. Smith, 1939
      • Latimeria chalumnae J. L. B. Smith, 1939 (West Indian Ocean coelacanth)
      • Latimeria menadoensis Pouyaud, Wirjoatmodjo, Rachmatika, Tjakrawidjaja, Hadiaty & Hadie, 1999 (Indonesian coelacanth)
    • Libys
    • Macropoma
    • Macropomoides
    • Megacoelacanthus
    • Swenzia
    • Undina

---

While not as numerous and diverse as the trilobites, they still show "more we see any creature microevolving in a few observable years in current time."Ignorance is no refutation of the real world facts.Enjoy(copying this to Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? Message 481)Edited by RAZD, : .

That's all you have? Your cognitive dissonance is showing.Enjoy

Look in the mirror Faith. You twist all of reality to force it into your fantasy. Sorry it doesn't fit.Your cognitive dissonance is showing, Faith. The whole science community is involved in a massive conspiracy coverup and only you have sussed out the TRVTH. The insults confirm it -- trying to minimize the dissonance by denigrating the source.enoughEnjoy

Why not? The rocks were moved once at least, why not two or three times? (glaciers anyone?)But I would be troubled by the source being over the rock with intervening layers and no fault lines.Either way it is not evidence for a flood, but normal geological actions.Enjoy

Which one?Enjoy

You repeat you link, I repeat my question, because your link does not answer it properly (it lies).

quote:

---

An An ice age is a period of long-term reduction in the temperature of Earth's surface and atmosphere, resulting in the presence or expansion of continental and polar ice sheets and alpine glaciers. Within a long-term ice age, individual pulses of cold climate are termed "glacial periods" (or alternatively "glacials" or "glaciations" or colloquially as "ice age"), and intermittent warm periods are called "interglacials". In the terminology of glaciology, ice age implies the presence of extensive ice sheets in both northern and southern hemispheres.[1]

​

There are three main types of evidence for ice ages: geological, chemical, and paleontological. ...

​

Geological evidence for ice ages comes in various forms, including rock scouring and scratching, glacial moraines, drumlins, valley cutting, and the deposition of till or tillites and glacial erratics. Successive glaciations tend to distort and erase the geological evidence, making it difficult to interpret. ...

​

The chemical evidence mainly consists of variations in the ratios of isotopes in fossils present in sediments and sedimentary rocks and ocean sediment cores. For the most recent glacial periods ice cores provide climate proxies from their ice, and atmospheric samples from included bubbles of air.

​

The paleontological evidence consists of changes in the geographical distribution of fossils. During a glacial period cold-adapted organisms spread into lower latitudes, and organisms that prefer warmer conditions become extinct or are squeezed into lower latitudes. ...

​

There have been at least five major ice ages in the earth's past (the Huronian, Cryogenian, Andean-Saharan, Karoo Ice Age and the Quaternary glaciation). Outside these ages, the Earth seems to have been ice-free even in high latitudes.[31][32]

​

Rocks from the earliest well established ice age, called the Huronian, formed around 2.4 to 2.1 Ga (billion years) ago during the early Proterozoic Eon. ...

​

The next well-documented ice age, and probably the most severe of the last billion years, occurred from 850 to 630 million years ago (the Cryogenian period) and may have produced a Snowball Earth in which glacial ice sheets reached the equator,[33] ...

​

The Andean-Saharan occurred from 460 to 420 million years ago, during the Late Ordovician and the Silurian period.

​

The evolution of land plants at the onset of the Devonian period caused a long term increase in planetary oxygen levels and reduction of CO2 levels, which resulted in the Karoo Ice Age. ...

​

The current ice age, the Pliocene-Quaternary glaciation, started about 2.58 million years ago during the late Pliocene, when the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000- and 100,000-year time scales called glacial periods, glacials or glacial advances, and interglacial periods, interglacials or glacial retreats. The earth is currently in an interglacial, and the last glacial period ended about 10,000 years ago. All that remains of the continental ice sheets are the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets and smaller glaciers such as on Baffin Island.

​

Ice ages can be further divided by location and time; for example, the names Riss (180,000—130,000 years bp) and Wrm (70,000—10,000 years bp) refer specifically to glaciation in the Alpine region. The maximum extent of the ice is not maintained for the full interval. The scouring action of each glaciation tends to remove most of the evidence of prior ice sheets almost completely, except in regions where the later sheet does not achieve full coverage.

---

At least 5 major ice ages. With millions of years between them.Also see General Overview of the Ice Ages.Curiously, on a side note the ice cores dating in Antarctica are currently reaching ~1 million years of accumulated layers of ice. Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1, Message 8:

quote:

---

http://www.awi-bremerhaven.de/...m05-1.hj/050113EPICA-e.html (3)

​

quote:

---

The drilling has been very successful and has been followed by a wide community of ice and climate researchers. The 70 meters of ice drilled this season completes a long venture started in 1996. The core has already led to the release in the scientific journal 'Nature' last June of a 740,000-year record of Antarctic climate. The new piece of core will extend the record to an age estimated to be more than 900.000 years old. This is the oldest ice that has been recovered from deep ice cores. The basal ice has ice crystals, some bigger than 40 centimetres and we have observed many inclusions of brown/reddish material mainly between the big ice crystals.

---

​

Minimum age of the earth >900,000 years based on this data

---

In addition, ice ages are known to transgress and regress over periods of thousands of years, and this is documented in the ice cores for the last ice age.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .

Another hoary PRATT: CD410: Airplanes Buried in Ice

quote:

---

Claim CD410:

​

Ice cores are claimed to have as many as 135,000 annual layers. Yet airplanes of the Lost Squadron were buried under 263 feet of ice in forty-eight years, or about 5.5 feet per year. This contradicts the presumption that the wafer-thin layers in the ice cores could be annual layers.

​

Source:

​

Vardiman, Larry. 1992. Ice cores and the age of the earth. Impact 226 (Apr.). The Institute for Creation Research

​

Response:

​

1. Ice layers are counted by different methods (mainly, visible layers of hoar frost, visible dust layers, and layers of differing electrical conductivity) which have nothing to do with thickness. These methods corroborate each other and match with other independently determined dates (Seely 2003).

​

2. The airplanes landed near the shore of Greenland, where snow accumulation is rapid, at about 2 m per year. Allowing for some compaction due to the weight of the snow, that accounts for the depth of snow under which they are buried. The planes are also on an active glacier and have moved about 2 km since landing. Ice core dating takes place on stable ice fields, not active glaciers. The interior of Greenland, where ice cores were taken, receives much less snow. In Antarctica, where ice cores dating back more than 100,000 years have been collected, the rate of snow accumulation is much less still.

​

3. A report of "many hundreds" of layers in the ice above the Lost Squadron may also be explained by the airplanes' location on Greenland. That location is relatively warm because it is low and more southerly; its surface gets repeatedly melted during the summer, creating multiple melt layers per year. At the site of the GISP2 ice core, melting occurs only about once every couple centuries. Melt layers are easily distinguished in ice cores. The more than 100,000 layers in ice cores are definitely not melt layers (Seely 2003).

​

Links:
Kuechmann, F. C., 2000. Creationist comedy. cretin comedy
References:

​

1. Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

​

Further Reading:
Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

​

Brinkman, Matt, 1995. Ice core dating. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

---

There are also differences in the ratio of ¹⁸O to ¹⁶O that indicate different climate, similar to the way the width of tree rings indicates different climate.

quote:

---

Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1Message 7: http://www.gsf.fi/esf_holivar/johnsen.pdf (4)

​

quote:

---

Combined with highly advanced measuring techniques (Fuhrer et al. 1993; Hammer et al. 1985; Rthlisberger et al. 2000) the resolution of the Greenland ice-core records can frequently be finer than a year, and potentially this degree of temporal resolution extends back to before 100 thousand years before present. ...

​

The 8.2 k cold event was originally dated in the Dye-3 core (Hammer et al. 1986) using the
strong d18O annual cycle. The Dye-3 chronology was subsequently transferred to the GRIP ice core by correlating volcanic events. The absolute age of the Younger Dryas/Preboreal transition in the GRIP core (11.500 BP) was obtained by counting annual cycles in high resolution Ca and ammonium ion records (Fuhrer et al. 1993) starting at the 8.2k cold event. ... and ii) by counting annual cycles in a continuous dust record back to 60 ka (Hammer et al. in press,1999?)

​

references
(4) Johnsen, Sigfs J. "The Greenland ice core records" ESF -- HOLIVAR workshop, Lammi Finland, April 17-20th 2002 Disscussion Paper. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from http://www.gsf.fi/esf_holivar/johnsen.pdf

---

---

Dust doesn't happen in the winter months, snow doesn't fall in the summer months, so dust layers indicate annual layers ... 60,000 of them countable (before the layers get too compressed). This is known as a "Hide-the-Pea" lie -- a favorite deception used by creationists --by ignoring the indicators of annual cycles to concentrate on a non-sequitur red-herring. Perpetrators of lies and misinformation which is intentional or they would have corrected their information when told how false and ignorant it is.Food for the gullible. Easily falsified with a little research.Enjoy

This is the consilience of information from multiple sources, multiple ways of dating, that somehow -- laden with the errors endemic to all scientific studies -- all result in the same information. It must be magical coincidence ... or just plain reality.Enjoy