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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 466 (641441)
11-19-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by jar
11-19-2011 12:26 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
jar writes:
The point in all three stories is that no one has a clue who will be saved, and the judgement will be based on how you behaved, not what club you are a member of, not whether or not you are a follower of Jesus or even a follower of Yahweh.
Any God that judges me on how I behave is unworthy of my worship, since it was He who set my behavior up to begin with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 12:26 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 398 of 466 (641508)
11-19-2011 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by jar
11-19-2011 7:13 PM


Least of these and yeast of Pharisees
jar writes:
Have you actually ever read the Bible?
Thats kinda presumptuous to say to I CANT...we know he reads the Bible. Not everyone interprets it as you do, jar. I will agree with you that we are supposed to help everyone, not just fellow believers...but you can hand out food to poor folk for years and never see them change.
In contrast, you can help a family get back on their feet and see the fruits of their progress in life.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 7:13 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 404 of 466 (717238)
01-25-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
01-10-2005 10:00 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
jar writes:
People are saved by Grace. Period. It has NOTHING to do with their beliefs, it is not conditional, it is not tied to profession. It was a gift freely given.
It was not given to Christians, or Jews. It was given to mankind. Everyone.
But there is one potential gottcha. That gottcha is your behavior. You can screw things up. You can throw away the gift freely given.
I've been reading about Anselm What it is to sin, and to make satisfaction for sin. and note that he speaks of obligation in this life.
quote:
This is the debt which man and angel owe to God, and no one who pays this debt commits sin; but every one who does not pay it sins. This is justice, or uprightness of will, which makes a being just or upright in heart, that is, in will; and this is the sole and complete debt of honor which we owe to God, and which God requires of us. For it is such a will only, when it can be exercised, that does works pleasing to God; and when this will cannot be exercised, it is pleasing of itself alone, since without it no work is acceptable. He who does not render this honor which is due to God, robs God of his own and dishonors him; and this is sin. Moreover, so long as he does not restore what he has taken away, he remains in fault; and it will not suffice merely to restore what has been taken away, but, considering the contempt offered, he ought to restore more than he took away. For as one who imperils another's safety does not enough by merely restoring his safety, without making some compensation for the anguish incurred; so he who violates another's honor does not enough by merely rendering honor again, but must, according to the extent of the injury done, make restoration in some way satisfactory to the person whom he has dishonored. We must also observe that when any one pays what he has unjustly taken away, he ought to give something which could not have been demanded of him, had he not stolen what belonged to another. So then, every one who sins ought to pay back the honor of which he has robbed God; and this is the satisfaction which every sinner owes to God.
so if we dont try and do our best to live an honorable life, we screw up the gift freely given?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 405 of 466 (812004)
06-14-2017 5:49 AM


jar writes:
IMHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.
To start with, the question arises as to what we are saved from and also what for.
ramoss writes:
From a Jewish perspective, the concept of Salvation is for this world, not the next one, so the Christian concept of 'being saved' is absent and unneeded.
From an athiestic point of view, it is a load of superstion , based on belief in an imaginary friend.
We have argued and discussed these concepts for quite some time now. One side believes that what a person actually does is what counts---belief or no belief. I have no problem with this philosophy, except that the idea that Jesus died for us is minimalized and trivialized.
jar introduces ringos favorite go-to scripture. Matthew 25.
jar writes:
So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"
IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."
If you examine Matthew 25 31:46, it is pretty clear what is needed to love GOD.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
And when you read that, there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.
For starters, everlasting punishment sounds a bit extreme. To me, were I God, simply making the goats cease to exist would be much fairer than handing them eternal punishment!
jar writes:
I cannot imagine a worse hell than sitting around singing praises for eternity. Puppy love is fine when you're a pre-teen but I have to believe that an afterlife must be something with a little more substance to it.
I know! You would likely be quite content if GOD never actually showed up but rather watched behind the curtain like a proud father as humanity grew up and began exploring new planets and solar systems. For some reason you minimize the possibility of a relationship with God. Often you ask how it can be proven. My question to you is that even if it could be proven would you have need of it?
jar writes:
... A being that could think this universe into existence, that could intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and the other forces, is not someone who would get his nose out of joint because someone says he doesn't exist. GOD is not small and petty, he is not a pimply faced teenager mooning because his love isn't returned. He did not create this universe for mankind, we are only a very recent addition, and it is only our egocentric nature that makes us believe we are anything special.
As to my belief that many Jews, Christians and Muslims will not be saved, I think the cleansing of the temple was a pretty good sign. Even Jesus death and resurection support that idea. Afterall, it was not the atheists and agnostics that were threatened by his life and ministry, but the franchise owners themselves.
While I agree with much of your criticism of organized religion, I think you carry it a bit too far when you even include the Apostle Paul as "one of the original franchise owners"... Talk about slaying sacred cows!
jar writes:
Is Enlightenment the same for each individual?
Actually a very good question to ask. Must Protestant Christianity involve a one size fits all approach?
jar writes:
Here is a section from the 1979 BCP that I believe covers the subject well.
All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.
The really important part is "... by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world...".
For the sins of the whole world. Not for the sins of christians. Not for the sins of believers. Not for the sins of the few, but for the sins of the whole world.
Christ died for the sins of the world. Everyone. All of us, sinner and saint, believer and non-believer.
Just as someone's belief in the existence or non-existence of GOD has no bearing on whether or not GOD exists, belief has no bearing on the fact that Christ died for the forgivness of our sins. Christ died for those who believe in him, and those who do not.
Actually a supportable argument. Why, however, do you see GOD as eternally unknowable? Does not the idea that Jesus is the way to God allow us amoebas to glimpse insight into a Being far superior to ourselves?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 7:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 407 of 466 (812041)
06-14-2017 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by jar
06-14-2017 7:06 AM


Re: and the answer is????????
jar writes:
Here is an opportunity to provided the reasoning and support for that assertion. What does Jesus is the way to God even mean?
If we agree that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is unknowable due to the vast difference between the characteristics of such a Deity and humans, traditional dogma asserts that Jesus provided a bridge or an intermediary.
The franchise offers a ready-made explanation: Jesus Is The Only Way
Several questions may arise:
  • Why do I need to "get" to GOD?
  • How can a human prophet offer a bridge?
    You have mentioned before that the GOD you worship is far bigger than what most dogma describes. Why you may ask, does humanity need to foreknowingly exist with a desperate need for GOD?
    And to be fair, you alone are the only one of the many Christians I have encountered who never seems to understand what it means to have a way to God....despite clear scriptures explaining the drill.
    In the same way, I cannot understand the whole idea of a GOD who is "complete" and Who is forever unknowable.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 406 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 7:06 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 408 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 2:51 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 416 of 466 (812168)
    06-15-2017 9:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 408 by jar
    06-14-2017 2:51 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    jar writes:
    nowhere in there did you offer any response or reasoned support for your assertions or explain what Jesus is the way to God even means.
    You know what the apologists say it means.
    You call yourself a believer. A Cradle Creedal Christian, IIRC.
    You also claim that loving God or getting closer to Him can only be done practically by loving, feeding, and clothing your neighbor.
    Perhaps you never understand or care what "Jesus is the way to God " means because to you, doing for the least is the path commanded.
    Thus, forcing me to explain what the apologists mean simply reinforces your case .

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 408 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 2:51 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 417 by jar, posted 06-15-2017 10:12 AM Phat has replied
     Message 418 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 419 of 466 (812319)
    06-16-2017 12:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 417 by jar
    06-15-2017 10:12 AM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    I've read what they write, heard what they market, but so far it is simply word salad or bumper stickers with no meaning attached.
    It makes me wonder why it is so difficult for you to glean any meaning where most people do.
    It almost sounds like hayakawa has taught you too well about the emptiness of certain catchphrases, etc.
    It also seems a bit prideful that you would charge so many people (apologists) with word salad explanations.
    To me its simple. GOD exists. Gods character is manifest in a human who then communicates with other humans.
    God uses this relationship to draw people closer to how He wants them to be....walking a fine line between preserving human free will and encouraging personal growth and change.
    Are you saying that posting what you think "Jesus is the way to God " means weakens your position?
    Basically it means to be like Jesus.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 417 by jar, posted 06-15-2017 10:12 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 420 by jar, posted 06-16-2017 6:27 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 421 of 466 (812368)
    06-16-2017 8:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 420 by jar
    06-16-2017 6:27 AM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    jar,addressing Faith writes:
    And when you read that,(Matthew 25) there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.
    I dont think that God could care less about who believes in Him or not...but I agree that it would likely NOT become a deal breaker.
    jar writes:
    Other folk in this very thread say what is necessary is to believe Jesus died to save them; "a Get Outta Hell Free card" in effect. Is that what you mean by "be like Jesus"?
    Not entirely. I agree with you in that Christianity (or being like Jesus) involves doing and not simply believing. I disagree that belief is unimportant, but I'm not sure why I cling to that belief apart from the fact that it was always emphasized in my earlier learning.
    One thing I will say--again--about Matthew 25:
    Matthew 25 writes:
    Matt 25:31-33
    31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. (...)Matt 25:41-46
    1 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
    44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
    45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
    46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
    Just as you say that you cannot imagine a God who cares whether or not we believe in Her, I cannot imagine a God who would condemn any group of people to eternal punishment....no matter what they do or don't do.
    I try and feed people. Cloth them. Volunteer where I can. I likely don't do enough of it...but what standard does God expect?
    I realize it makes little sense to skate off with a free pass, but keep in mind that another parable had workers who only worked an hour getting as much compensation as those who worked all day.
    To me, eternal punishment is extreme even for satan.
    (or Hitler...take your pick)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 420 by jar, posted 06-16-2017 6:27 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:58 AM Phat has replied
     Message 424 by jar, posted 06-16-2017 9:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 423 of 466 (812371)
    06-16-2017 9:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
    06-16-2017 8:58 AM


    Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
    I agree with you that there is a transformation involved. Our critics would likely assert, however, that if people actually can and do get saved...and are thus transformed...where is the evidence of such transformation?
    The very responses and behaviors that you or I exhibit in these debates are indictments for or against any alleged transformation that we claim to have received.
    Look at the established church in general. What evidence is there for wholesale transformation? We have Christians who still believe in US Nationalism as a God given right. WWJD? How would Jesus fit in with todays culture?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:58 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 425 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 9:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 451 of 466 (813102)
    06-23-2017 8:08 AM


    Back On Topic! Salvation NOT evolution
    The topic is about salvation...not evolution.
    jar writes:
    MHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.
    So to others out there, whether you are Christian, one of the other Judaic faiths, agnostic or even atheist, what do you think? Who can be saved and how do you support your position?
    ramoss writes:
    From a Jewish perspective, the concept of Salvation is for this world, not the next one, so the Christian concept of 'being saved' is absent and unneeded.
    From an atheistic point of view, it is a load of superstition, based on belief in an imaginary friend.
    jar then offers support for Matthew 25 and his belief that salvation is based upon what we DO rather than WHO we believe in:
    jar writes:
    if GOD reached out to the Jews directly, the Gentiles through Jesus, why couldn't GOD reach out to the Muslims through Mohamud, Asians through Confucious, Buddha and Mencius and Mormons through Joseph Smith.
    Look at Matthew 25. Where does it show any requirement for profession of Jesus, knowledge of Jesus, belief in Jesus or even an intent to acknowledge Jesus? In fact, where does it show a requirement to profess GOD, acknowledge GOD, worship GOD or even an intent to Love GOD?
    Matthew 25 is very clear. No interpretation is needed. It says if you have done it for the least of these, you've done it for GOD. It does not say Christians are saved and all others damned. It says those that have loved GOD will be saved even if they never intended to do so.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    Replies to this message:
     Message 452 by jar, posted 06-23-2017 9:13 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 457 of 466 (813308)
    06-26-2017 1:37 AM


    Get Back To The Topic
    Would everyone please stop this off topic discussion?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 458 of 466 (822893)
    11-03-2017 9:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 62 by jar
    10-05-2004 1:07 AM


    Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
    jar writes:
    Do you think GOD would be more forgiving than a human?
    I hope so.
    Perhaps I am wrong to expect it though.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by jar, posted 10-05-2004 1:07 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 459 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 9:58 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 460 of 466 (822987)
    11-04-2017 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 459 by jar
    11-03-2017 9:58 AM


    Lost In Ignorance Or Saved From It?
    I read the rest of this topic. We argued the same things back then as we do now. Some good conversations, though.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 459 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 9:58 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 461 of 466 (863203)
    09-22-2019 11:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by jar
    10-03-2004 12:41 AM


    jar writes:
    Look at Matthew 25. Where does it show any requirement for profession of Jesus, knowledge of Jesus, belief in Jesus or even an intent to acknowledge Jesus? In fact, where does it show a requirement to profess GOD, acknowledge GOD, worship GOD or even an intent to Love GOD?
    Matthew 25 is very clear. No interpretation is needed. It says if you have done it for the least of these, you've done it for GOD. It does not say Christians are saved and all others damned. It says those that have loved GOD will be saved even if they never intended to do so.
    31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    You say that nowhere is mentioned acknowledgment of Jesus or God, correct?
  • Who is the son of man?
  • who is the King?
    If the sheep and goats judgment happened tomorrow, and one was to simply walk away from the assembly, what would happen to them?
    It appears to me that simply being gathered before the King implies a necessity of acknowledgment.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by jar, posted 10-03-2004 12:41 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 462 by jar, posted 09-22-2019 12:13 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 463 of 466 (863211)
    09-22-2019 4:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 462 by jar
    09-22-2019 12:13 PM


    The Idea Of A Creator In General Is Rational
    Well, my point in prodding your old quote with a stick was to make it clear that I disagree with your assessment that a person does not have to acknowledge God (or more specifically Jesus) in order to become saved. Granted, I have always referred to you as the Apostle To The Atheists and will admit that your arguments are sound. I was discussing some of what we have discussed with my young friend who is in training (by God, not by his own desire) to be a future Pastor. First, a word about him. He is nearly homeless and has been poor his whole life. He works (if you could call it work--they dont pay him) at an inner city ministry cooking at a soup kitchen for the homeless. (The Sloppy Agape Soup Kitchen). He thus does exactly what we always talk about what Jesus commands us to do. I have no doubt that if there is a Heavenly Reward for doing such things, he will receive it. This morning we studied the book of James over the phone.
    In James 2, we studied the idea of partiality. I am guilty of this, as I would tend to take the suave young teenage friend to church yet ignore the homeless guy who smelled bad. I've been working on this, but in my mind I need Gods help...its human nature to be more attracted to some causes and less attracted to others. You always claim that we should throw God away. And yet James says
    James 3:13-18 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. NKJV James 4:1-5 writes:
    Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain,"The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
    NKJV
    Now granted you could make an argument that the Spirit either dwells in us(all of us) or not and that this in and of itself shouldn't matter as far as what we are charged to do. But what do you think of the whole idea--"friendship with the world is enmity with God"?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 462 by jar, posted 09-22-2019 12:13 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 464 by jar, posted 09-22-2019 7:57 PM Phat has replied

      
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