Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 76 of 182 (812052)
06-14-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 1:36 PM


Re: Free Will and an All-Good World
New Cat's Eye writes:
You're proposing a negligible increase in restriction, so I'm going to turn a question you asked me back around to you: Does it matter?
I think it matters a lot.
But in context.
Context = "mattering to the amount of free will we have"
I agree it hardly matters at all.
Context = "amount of harm done to the people who have hopes, lives and dreams of their own.. all destroyed by being affected by a few horrible evils"
I think it matters EVERYTHING here.
The risk of loss (pretty much nothing) to potential gain (pretty much everything for certain people past, present and future negatively affected by such things) makes it a pretty easy decision from my view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 1:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 1:56 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 182 (812055)
06-14-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Stile
06-14-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Free Will and an All-Good World
New Cat's Eye writes:
You're proposing a negligible increase in restriction, so I'm going to turn a question you asked me back around to you: Does it matter?
I think it matters a lot.
Meh, we're swimming in an ocean of evil and you're saying it would be nice if that guy stopped squirting us with a water gun

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 1:48 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 78 of 182 (812056)
06-14-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 1:28 PM


NCE writes:
I think you're looking at it backwards, at least from my perspective. I'm a religious person, and I believe that we have free will. But that belief stems, not from a religious position, but from observations of the real world.
Free will is a religious concept which in reality it doesn't exist. People have the ability to do the things the wish to do but within limits - in social science terms it's 'bounded'.
The bounds within which we can act are created by all sorts of stuff such as our disposition, societal norms, social upbringing and even our genes. I could no more strangle and rape a child than I could fly to the moon but there are those that can. Their free will appears to be freer than mine.
There's a lot more to this, in that the vast majority of our behaviours are governed not by our conscious, choice-making mind, but our unconscious, autonomous systems and how we feel and behave is controlled by hormonal responses to situations which differ between individuals and by time of day, day of month, age, illness, drugs etc etc.
Freewill is a fiction and God-given freewill doubly so. We are a product of competitive evolution, god has zip to do with it so it's a totally specious argument. It's angels on pinhead stuff.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 1:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 2:58 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 82 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 3:27 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 06-14-2017 4:37 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 90 by Taq, posted 06-14-2017 5:10 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 79 of 182 (812063)
06-14-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
06-14-2017 2:01 PM


Tangle writes:
So freewill is a fiction and God-given freewill doubly so. We are a product of competitive evolution, god has zip to do with it.
Are you saying that the concept of "everyone has equal free will" is religious?
Or the entire concept of free will in any capacity?
The bounds within which we can act are created by all sorts of stuff such as our disposition and social upbringing and even our genes. I could no more stragle and rape a child than I could fly to the moon but there are those that can. There free will appears to be freer than mine.
I agree with all this.
But I don't see how any of it means free will "doesn't exist."
Why can't competitive evolution produce free will?
I see how it means things like "free will isn't as open-ended as you may think" or "free will isn't equal for all people."
But "in reality doesn't exist" doesn't seem to make sense with my experiences of reality.
Perhaps I'm using the term free will different from you, though.. and that's just where my confusion comes from.
When I say 'free will' I mean the ability to make a decision from an assortment of options where "you" make the decision (your brain, mind, not being coerced from anything non-you). Ex -> Picking what t-shirt I want to wear from the 10 in my drawer is a free will decision to me.
I don't see any 'religious concept' in there anywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 3:16 PM Stile has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 182 (812071)
06-14-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Stile
06-14-2017 2:58 PM


Stile writes:
Are you saying that the concept of "everyone has equal free will" is religious?
Yes - it's a religious invention.
Perhaps I'm using the term free will different from you, though.. and that's just where my confusion comes from.
Free will as opposed to what?
We have freedom of action within our physical and emotional capabilities. It's not a 'thing' in itself, it's just a necessary part of our make up and life. Christian religion makes it a point of dogma, part of the Genesis and the 'Fall' story. It's cobblers, it's simply a result of our competitive evolutionary history. Without religion, the concept would not exist.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 2:58 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 3:24 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 4:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 81 of 182 (812074)
06-14-2017 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
06-14-2017 3:16 PM


Tangle writes:
Yes - it's a religious invention.
Do you have any educationary place I can see and look this up?
Free will as opposed to what?
Coerced will.
We have freedom of action within our physical and emotional capabilities.
Yeah. I've always referred to it as free will.
It's not a 'thing' in itself, it's just a necessary part of our make up and life.
I agree. This doesn't make it religiously created.
Christian religion makes it a point of dogma, part of the Genesis and the 'Fall' story. It's cobblers, it's simply a result of our competitive evolutionary history.
Again, I agree with all of this.
None of this points to it being something made up by religion.
Christian religion makes The Flood a point of dogma, part of Genesis and Noah's story. it's cobblers, it's simply a result of the way people "recorded" history.
None of that makes floods something made up by religion.
Without religion, the concept would not (exist?).
I don't see this connection.
I think the concept of free will would still exist without religion.
For one, I'm not very religious and I think about the concept of free will lets say... "more than average."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 3:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 3:53 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 82 of 182 (812075)
06-14-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
06-14-2017 2:01 PM


Free will is a religious concept which in reality it doesn't exist.
Free will as a concept is philosophical, not religious, and dates back to the Greeks.
Free will as an ability is something that we all have in reality, and it does exist.
People have the ability to do the things the wish to do but within limits
That's free will.
We are a product of competitive evolution, god has zip to do with it so it's a totally specious argument. It's angels on pinhead stuff.
Sure, philosophy isn't very practical... but that doesn't mean it can't be interesting.
Let free will exist as "the ability of people to do the things they wish to do but within limits".
If there was a god, they would apparently be putting 'having free will' as a higher priority than 'not having evil', no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2017 4:05 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 83 of 182 (812079)
06-14-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Stile
06-14-2017 3:24 PM


Stile writes:
Do you have any educationary place I can see and look this up?
Not really - it's been a religious and philosophical obsession for centuries, all pre-science. The Christian church picked it up and created sin with it.
Coerced will.
But that state of mind doesn't exist. It's a made-up idea. The only reality we know of is bounded action.
None of that makes floods something made up by religion.
Floods aren't made up by religion, but the stories about them are. Freewill is a story, it's a simplistic myth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 3:24 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 182 (812080)
06-14-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
06-14-2017 3:16 PM


Stile writes:
Are you saying that the concept of "everyone has equal free will" is religious?
Yes - it's a religious invention.
That's not true, why do you say it?
Its a philosophical concept based on real world experiences.
We have freedom of action within our physical and emotional capabilities. It's not a 'thing' in itself, it's just a necessary part of our make up and life.
A necessary part of our make up and life IS a thing in itself.
Without religion, the concept would not exist.
That's not true either. It also has ramifications for legal systems and what is and is not a crime and what an appropriate punishment would be.
Christian religion makes it a point of dogma, part of the Genesis and the 'Fall' story.
I don't subscribe to The Fall and I still think free will is an interesting concept to discuss... even completely outside of religion.
Why are you trying to tarnish the concept of free will by trying to make it solely a religious invention?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 3:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 4:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 85 of 182 (812081)
06-14-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 3:27 PM


If there was a god, they would apparently be putting 'having free will' as a higher priority than 'not having evil', no?
And without considering God, the question of free will does not become a lesser question. The philosophy of free will is intimately bound up in earthly questions regarding crime, punishment and personal responsibility. Our societal notions of fairness, and our willingness to consider mental state, and to allow the insane to escape punishment are all tied up in our acceptance or rejection of the concept of free will.
I am not sure that the origin of the concept is completely non-religious. Saying that it originated with the ancient Greeks isn't much proof given that those folks worshiped their own gods. What we can say is that the concept of free will is completely separable from religion and that there is no particular reason why even atheists would necessarily accept or reject the concept.
Let free will exist as "the ability of people to do the things they wish to do but within limits".
Or
quote:
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Or
quote:
Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 3:27 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 86 of 182 (812082)
06-14-2017 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 4:05 PM


NCE writes:
That's not true, why do you say it?
I've already moderated my position to say that it's a philosophical/religious concept - pre-science. If that helps at all.
It also has ramifications for legal systems and what is and is not a crime and what an appropriate punishment would be.
Sure, intent is a necessary part of our law. I'm not denying that people have the ability to choose their actions, I'm saying that the ability to choose is not the black and white thing that religion paints it - in most respect our ability is severely restricted.
I don't subscribe to The Fall and I still think free will is an interesting concept to discuss... even completely outside of religion.
It's a great thing to discuss but it needs to be liberated from the restrictions of religion and philosophy. It needs to take on some reality. And change its bloody name to something more sensible.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 4:05 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 87 of 182 (812084)
06-14-2017 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
06-14-2017 2:01 PM


Something tells me that if someone found ancient religious text that gave detailed mathematical proofs for gravity. You would scoff and say meh, religious babble of no importance. Ha ha I joke.
Imo,
painting something as being derived from religious origins does not diminish what knowledge it may impart to our collective human understanding of our world. We all had to start somewhere.
Religion and mythology was part of that story.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 06-14-2017 4:47 PM 1.61803 has not replied
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 5:09 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 182 (812085)
06-14-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by 1.61803
06-14-2017 4:37 PM


~1.6 writes:
We all had to start somewhere.
Religion and mythology was part of that story.
Religion: the kindergarten of knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 06-14-2017 4:37 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 89 of 182 (812089)
06-14-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by 1.61803
06-14-2017 4:37 PM


1.6etc writes:
Something tells me that if someone found ancient religious text that gave detailed mathematical proofs for gravity. You would scoff and say meh, religious babble of no importance. Ha ha I joke.
I'm waiting, try me.
painting something as being derived from religious origins does not diminish what knowledge it may impart to our collective human understanding of our world.
Off hand I can't think of any knowledge that came from religion, can you? There must be something, Christianity has been around for a couple of thousand years. It's an interesting 'what have the Romans ever done for us?' question. Generally, my impression is that religion suppresses the acquisition of knowledge, hence my allergic reaction to it.
We all had to start somewhere.
Yeh, but I was hoping we'd moved on.
Religion and mythology was part of that story.
Ignominious and wrong though it often was.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 06-14-2017 4:37 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 10:41 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 90 of 182 (812090)
06-14-2017 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
06-14-2017 2:01 PM


Tangle writes:
Free will is a religious concept which in reality it doesn't exist.
It's a concept in quantum mechanics.
As to my view on free will, I use the "Roller Coaster Paradigm". A roller coaster may follow a determined path, but does that really take away from the fun of the ride? Therefore, it really doesn't matter if there is free will in our lives as long as you can close your eyes, throw your hands in the air, have fun, and make it through without vomiting or having someone else vomit on you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Dogmafood, posted 06-15-2017 7:14 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024