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Author Topic:   Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon'?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 154 (673096)
09-13-2012 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by NoNukes
09-13-2012 6:23 PM


Re: Translating exercise
So is the original version related to the oral tradition, or to one particular account put into writing?
That really varies.
For example there are at least two different traditions of the flood myths just smushed together with no attempt to make redaction, and it's likely that many parts such as Joshua and Judges are two different traditions but describing similar periods.
OFF TOPIC
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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 154 (811861)
06-12-2017 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-12-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
Faith writes:
ABE: Oh, and even to have Jesus' spoken words at all you need to trust those fallible human beings.
Actually Faith, no a thinking person does not need to trust those fallible human beings. Just as with all wisdom a thinking person will test the words to see if they are reasonable, logical, within the realm of reality and applicable at the current time, place and milieu.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 10:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 154 (811885)
06-13-2017 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
06-12-2017 10:18 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
Faith writes:
The writings included in the canon were determined by the early church leaders and others down the centuries to be authored by the Holy Spirit. No thinking person who has the Holy Spirit needs any further test.
That is simply demonstrably not true Faith. The proof that refutes your assertion is that there is not one Canon but many and the ONLY books that are common to ALL of the Christian Canons are the first five books of the Old Testament.
Faith writes:
ABE: The "scholars" who have been raising so many questions about the authenticity of the Bible over the last couple of centuries are phonies who don't have the Holy Spirit. These things are spiritually discerned, mere intellect -- which is fallen intellect -- can't discern them.
Yawn.
Yes Faith we know you believe that but reality shows that there is no Biblical justification for the Fall or any Fallen intellect; those are all simply stuff made up by apologists.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 154 (811964)
06-13-2017 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
06-13-2017 7:30 PM


Re: Truth Carried Through History
Phat writes:
Do you believe that the church...(The Body Of Christ) has survived solely because some of its members had the Holy Spirit and thus preserved the truth for future generations?
The problem is that there is no such thing as "The Canon" rather there are lots of Canons. As I have pointed out, the only books that are common to every Christian Canon are the first five book of the Old Testament. In addition, over 50% of the Christians in the world are Roman Catholics. The balance is divided between Protestants, the Orthodox chapters of Club Christian many with a unique Canon or even multiple Canons, the Non-Trinitarian Christians and a whole host of unique chapters that are off on their own.
That means that the majority of Christians follow the Roman Catholic Canon and the Protestant Canon is at best, an "also ran".
If you are going to claim that Canons came into creation through some agency of the Holy Spirit you need to explain why the Holy Spirit could not make up its mind on what should be included or excluded and how to test and determine which inspiration is actually the Holy Spirit and not the normal politics, power struggles, personal bias and petty intrigues.
Or bad burritos.
There is simply no way to honestly or even reasonably support an assertion of the " Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon' " or any specific Canon.
People can and do subscribe to different Canons even when most do not even know what a Canon is or how any of them were created or even that there really is such a thing at a Canon and if asked to explain their subscribed Canon the best they can come up with is "The one MY church uses!"

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 154 (811995)
06-13-2017 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
06-13-2017 8:29 PM


Re: Truth Carried Through History
The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are two different things.
Nor is there anyway to actually tell if anyone has the Spirit of Christ. At the time Paul was writing Romans the issue of the Holy Spirit as part of some Trinity had not yet even been suggested.
And regardless, the fact is that most Christians follow the Roman Catholic Canon and that there are many other Canons; or the fact that the only books that are common to all the various Christian Canons are the first five books of the Old Testament; or the fact that some Christian Churches have more than one Canon; or that some Christian Churches do not believe in the Trinity.
There is no way to determine that one Canon is superior to another Canon.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 8:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 11:36 PM jar has replied
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 1:56 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 102 of 154 (812006)
06-14-2017 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
06-13-2017 11:36 PM


Re: Truth Carried Through History
I explained that. At the time Romans was being written the Holy Spirit was simply not a major concept in the new religion Paul and others were creating. Sure, Apologists have made the assertion they are one and the same but there is absolutely no reason to think Paul thought they were the same thing. As you quote itself shows it is far more likely it is the generic "Wisdom" or "Truth". Even the concept of the Trinity as still hundreds of years in the future.
Regardless of what apologists assert, the topic is about the supposed superiority of the Protestant Canon and the facts are that there are many different Canons and most Christians follow the Roman Catholic Canon. The fact that there are so many Canons and as I have pointed out before, the only books common to all the Canons are the first five books of the Old Testament shows that if the Canons are created under the guidance of some "Holy Spirit" then the Holy Spirit is inconsistent at best.
What is missing from this thread as expected is any actual support for the assertion of any superiority of the Protestant Canon or any evidence of any external guidance or motivation other than the normal bias, politics, power and control.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 103 of 154 (812007)
06-14-2017 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
06-14-2017 5:03 AM


Re: Truth Carried Through History
Phat writes:
He does his homework and has some well thought out arguments supported by scripture, but where he and I disagree is that he focuses on the content of scripture in light of human logic, reason, and reality and is anti-pauline.
Not true Phat. I am not opposed to what Paul wrote but rather opposed to the perversion of what Paul wrote common in much of modern Evangelical Christianity.
Phat writes:
The Protestant Canon emphasizes a relational communion with God.
If that is the case then this thread is the place to present the supporting evidence for that assertion and to show how the other Canons do not emphasize a relational communion with God, whatever that means.
BUT... as expected, no one has presented such evidence.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 154 (812165)
06-15-2017 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
06-15-2017 8:57 AM


Re: Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Topic Phat.
Where is the support for the assertion of any Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon'?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 8:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:09 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 154 (812177)
06-15-2017 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
06-15-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Phat writes:
Is the Gospel of John included in all of the Canons you mentioned or do some omit it?
As I said, only the first five books of the Old Testament are common to all the Canons. The shortest Canon is the Samaritan Orthodox Canon and they take the position that only those books already Canonized at the time Jesus lived should be considered. Their position is anything written after Jesus is commentary and not Canonical. None of the New Testament books are included.
Way back in Message 33 I listed some possible ways that the different Canons might be categorized.
quote:
But a collection of fragments of scrolls found in a variety of caves is NOT a Canon.
A Canon is a list compiled by a recognized Committee of Canon of what books should be included in a Bible.
That is what is NOT found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
There have been many such Committees of Canon and each one has drawn up a different list.
In fact, the only books that are common to ALL of the various Canons are the first five books of the Old Testament.
There are several possible way to determine which Canon is superior.
One could be commonality. The Superior Canon is the one that contains ONLY Books found in all Canons. By that criteria the Samaritan Orthodox Canon is Superior to all others and everything except the first five books of the Old Testament is non-canonical.
Another could be inclusiveness. The Canon that includes the most books is Superior and so the Ethiopian Long Canon with its 80 plus books is superior.
The criteria could be based on acceptance by a major chapter of Club Christian and there the Roman Catholic Canon is far superior.
It could be based on documented age and there the superior Canon would be the one drawn up by the Nicean Committee of Canon.
Or it could be the most recent Canon and thus the Mormon Canon which is open and continually growing is far superior.
So what is the justification argument that might show the Protestant Canon as superior?
So the question remains, what justification is there for some Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon'?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 148 of 154 (824352)
11-27-2017 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
11-27-2017 9:27 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
Phat writes:
Why would Jesus be excluded from any Canon?
The Samaritan Orthodox Canon recognizes only those books that would have been considered canonical at the time Jesus lived. That is actually only the Pentateuch and while they recognize most of the other books of the Old & New Testament as sacred writings they consider them extra-canonical, much like the modern Western Protestant Apocrypha.
Again, stuff like this should be part of any childhood Christian Sacred Studies.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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