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Author Topic:   Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me?
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 106 of 114 (811577)
06-09-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Davidjay
06-09-2017 10:38 AM


Re: Job talks about pre flood animals
Heres singular verses on foundations, Read the whole chapter for a clearer insight..
Job 38:4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Psalm 11:3If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
Psalm 18:7Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psalm 18:15Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
Psalm 82:5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
(From simple internet bible search via
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: foundations )
For do notice the synchronization with Pslams written usually by King David of Old, exactly the same principle... not pre-existence but same principle of foundations before the Flood and after the Flood and into the END TIME where the foundations are shaken...
(Earthquakes) And thats true geology.. even if the evolutionists can;t handle it or stand up during a minor or major earthquake.
True remains..
IMHO
David

Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 10:38 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 10:46 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 107 of 114 (811579)
06-09-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Davidjay
06-09-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Job talks about pre flood animals
Hmmmmm... channels of waters were seen, what is that talking about.
Sounds to me as a reference to the channels of water that flooded the Earth with the Flood and where the waters returned AFTER the Flood.. Thank you Jesus, something new I never saw before...

Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 10:44 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 108 of 114 (811580)
06-09-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Davidjay
06-09-2017 10:33 AM


Re: I accept Job and the varied messages within, evolutionists/atheists REJECT Job
No, this dragon is preFlood and Yes unscientific illogical evolutionary non scientists reject this true History.
Where are the bones?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 10:33 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 109 of 114 (811646)
06-10-2017 7:11 AM


This thread needs some order. Evolution & evolutionists are not the topic. But ...
I need to ask a question about what exactly you mean by the endless rambling about the Evolution issue. You keep sidestepping the actual discussion and my actual questions, so I forced myself to wonder what your reason is for endlessly bringing it up.
I "prayed about it " and a light came on.
I assumed that you were talking about biological Evolution ( what the TOE is about - biology ), but it just occurred to me that you are a Young Earth Creationist, and your beef might be against nuclear physics and the idea that hydrogen fuses to form helium . Is your "Evolution" and "Evolutionist" and "Theory of Evolution" obsession based on the YEC rejection of Fusion and the outright rejection of the idea that the stars are the source of oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen? (YEC theory on stars are the "giant candle burning down" idea I am thinking ) The winding back of the nuclear clock is opposed by YECs but it is irrelevant to this Rahab discussion actually.
The YEC view is the (secular historian's) assumed cosmological view of Job, and it is assumed that he didn't consider biological life to exist until after the waters were divided but before the stars were made. Additionally, Rahab (as the Primeval Dragon that it clearly is ) isn't seen as a contradiction to the YEC view at all. The reason is that it can be seen as elemental and not biological. Job could have seen Rahab as the raw material for the later (for example ) 4 elements of Earth, Water, Fire, and Air (this is just an illustration of what Job might have thought ).
The various Old Earth Creationist views also place biological life after the water division but I suppose that there is a division as to whether the stars came before or after biological life. But the Primeval Dragon is compatible with Old Earth Creationist views - which all happen to reject biological Evolution ( but certain theories allow for what you might call Cosmic Evolution though I shouldn't use the capital E since cosmic evolution is NOT the TOE which is strictly related to biology ).
The Primeval Dragon is compatible with all creationism theories. I mentioned that is isn't even incompatible with Theistic Evolution cosmological views . I also pointed out that it isn't even falsifiable in purely secular scientific investigations ( due to an inability to make observations "before the bang ") . BUT UNDERSTAND WHY I MENTIONED THE BIG BANG ISSUE!
All cosmological views place biological life later than the start of the Earth and the water present on earth.
All cosmological views allow for something before the beginning of the universe.
READY TO UNDERSTAND, David Jay?
Here is the reason. I pointed it out so we wouldn't have to spend a second's worth of time worrying about the Big Bang or YEC or any various cosmological view. The sad irony was that you not only choose to dwell on secular scientific views, but you actually ended up turning the (un-necessary to start with ) dwelling into a complete, total, 100% sidestepping of the actual discussion. (To make matters far worse, you choose to bring in what appears to be the biological evolution TOE - though I am wondering if you were referring to the nuclear physics issues of the chemical elements fusing when you mention evolution )
The issue we need to examine is this :
Use the Bible text of Genesis 1 and Job 26 in a harmony so we can chronologically place the entire text into sync, which will help us greatly in deciding where to place Rahab and the twisting serpent ( which are in verses 12 and 13 respectively ) Quote the entire text from both chapters but interlace the verses in a harmony.
ALSO, ANOTHER QUESTION:
Do you feel that God is incapable of using a primeval dragon for the raw material for the universe? You seem to deny that God could even exist before and outside the universe ( you said precisely that and more than once ) so is that the source of your denial of a pre-universe dragon?

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 7:21 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 112 by Davidjay, posted 06-10-2017 10:36 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 114 (811647)
06-10-2017 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by LamarkNewAge
06-10-2017 7:11 AM


Re: This thread needs some order. Evolution & evolutionists are not the topic. But ...
LNA writes:
Use the Bible text of Genesis 1 and Job 26 in a harmony so we can chronologically place the entire text into sync, which will help us greatly in deciding where to place Rahab and the twisting serpent ( which are in verses 12 and 13 respectively ) Quote the entire text from both chapters but interlace the verses in a harmony.
OK let me see if i understand your request. Genesis 1:12 and Job 26:13?
Or all of Genesis 1?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-10-2017 7:11 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Davidjay, posted 06-10-2017 10:31 AM Phat has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 111 of 114 (811664)
06-10-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
06-10-2017 7:21 AM


Re: Job was preflood
I have timelines, but evolutionists timelines are NOT exact and have extreme gaps or missing links....and involve millions and billions of years.
So only creationists timelines have any validity when talking about the real life JOB.... and so of course evolutionists who have no timelines for Job and usually deny Job and get everything all mixed up, would deny a creationist literal timeline.
ForeFathersGraphic
Job was pre 2348 B.C. and after 4004 B.C.

Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 7:21 AM Phat has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 112 of 114 (811665)
06-10-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by LamarkNewAge
06-10-2017 7:11 AM


Re:Correct your logic and math... then edit your posting
All cosmological views place biological life later than the start of the Earth and the water present on earth.
All cosmological views allow for something before the beginning of the universe.
READY TO UNDERSTAND, David Jay?
Lamark, let me correct, your flawed logic, as logic is SET LAW and mathematics, and evolutionists and atheists absolutely abhor math and true science and logic.
So for you to understand you have to say Some cosmologists, some not ALL.
You could even attempt to say, Most cosmotologists.
Some meaning less than half, Most meaning more than half and not ALL.
My cosmology as a creationist means you can not say or suggest or write that ALL cosmotologists agree..., use some or most. not ALL
And majority opinion or minority opinion matters not... truth is not a marketing push or a slanted democratic voting process, NOR do ALL cosmologists agree...... All means everyone... all is all inclusive of all, and that statement can NOT be made, except to decive or intimidate the naive.
Do correct your statement and statements and then you might UNDERSTAND as I understand
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-10-2017 7:11 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 113 of 114 (811738)
06-11-2017 10:38 AM


The Lord rebukes evolutionists in Chapter 38
I know, I know we aren't allowed to post verses and whole chapters against poor persecuted evolutionists who are so timid and shy and persecuted... Nevertheless it comes from the Creator Himself, so lets take a look and read it for ourselves anyway...just for honesty sake.
***************************************
38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
******************************
IN OTHER WORDS, THE LORD IS EXTREMELY UPSET WITH JOB AND EVOLUTIONISTS, AND ATHEISTS... where were they when He measured the earth, and established the foundations, etc etc etc..
And there it is brethren and non brethren, the seas have doors, and the doors can be open and the waters from the DEEP can burst forth as they did during the worldwide flood.... more confirmations TYJ.
Cornerstone thereof.. Yes, the land masses had a cornerstone, or center as mentioned and as censored.. Giza, Enochs Pillar, the common GREAT CIRCLE which shows the original equator before the shift...
Pity you wouldnt be able to discuss that, becuae it also can not be discussed in science. But we can do it HERE..
Onward Christian Scientists, searching the depths of wisdom and creation
IHS
David

Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 114 of 114 (820978)
09-29-2017 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
07-07-2016 12:47 PM


Back to the Primal Draagon issue.
A comment was made about the widespread use of the Primal Dragon in the world's mythology.
quote:
All of the evidence shows that different cultures from all over the world and all periods of time came up with similar creation myths. One recurring theme is some serpent or dragon or great fish that represents chaos and slaying the critter brings about order. In addition regional cultures adopted and exported the myths to and from their neighbors. Who has priority on some concept or image really seems irrelevant when discussing a story where such passages are used only as a plot device.
Then Phat made reference to the Indo Iranian history (I havn't re read the entire thread, but it reminded me of the primeval dragon being mentioned in the Macropaedia of Encyclopedia Britannica on the entry for Indo Iranian religion or something).
The dates for the Ancient Middle Eastern dragon motif are relevant.
The Enuma Elish text could be from the Amorite Old Babylonian period (the dates depend on the Venus tablets of Amizaduka with could be used to date the Hammurabi ascension if one works back) of around 1800 to 1500, or the Kassite period (after 1600-1500 BCE), or just after 1100 BCE.
Enma Eli - Wikipedia
There is the Ugaritic reference that is after 1500 BCE but prior to 1100 BCE.
Then the Hebrew texts which are later still. Though Exodus 15 is food for thought because it might have something to do with the dragon slaying issue or at least its attractiveness to the late Hebrew authors.
(Exodus 15 might be older than the latest possible date for Enuma Elish but the Sea Peoples - which included the Philistines - destroyed Ugarit along the way to Palestine, and the Philistines being mentioned in Exodus 15 means the Song of the Sea text is later)
From J.J. Collins Introduction to the Hebrew Bible.
quote:
The sea imagery continues to exercise a powerful effect on the religious imagination of ancient Israel. As we saw in chapter 1, other ancient Near Eastern peoples had stories of combat between a god and the sea, or a sea monster. The Ugaritic myth of Baal and Yamm is the one closest to the context of Israel. The battle between Marduk and Tiamat in the Babylonian Enuma Elish is also relevant. In the biblical psalms, too, we often find that YHWH is said to do battle with the sea. In Psalm 114 we are told that the sea looked and fled before the Lord. Psalm 77 also says that the waters were afraid, in view of the thunder and lightning of the Lord, as he led his people. One of the most vivid passages is found in Isa 51:9—11*, where the prophet asks: Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon? Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over? Rahab and the dragon were sea monsters, supposedly defeated and slain by YHWH in the process of creation (although this story is never narrated in the Bible). The exodus, in the view of the prophet, was an event of the same type. It would not be too much to say that the exodus was the creation myth of Israel, and that the sea imagery provided a powerful way to give expression to its mythic character. Just as the ancient Near Eastern myths provided paradigms through which various events could be viewed and endowed with meaning, so the exodus became the paradigm for understanding later events in the history of Israel. We shall find that the prophets imagined a new exodus, as a way in which Israel might start over, and renew its relationship with its God. This motif becomes especially important after the Babylonian exile, in the form either of return from exile or of a final, eschatological deliverance.
One other theme in the accounts of the episode at the sea requires comment. The hymn in Exodus 15 declares: YHWH is a warrior, YHWH is his name! The idea that gods are warriors was a common one in the ancient Near East. A major reason why the early Israelites worshiped YHWH was that they believed that he was a powerful warrior, who could help them defeat their enemies
The Vrtras were a primeval dragon among the Indo Iranians and the slaying was among the oldest parts of the Vedas. The Vedic textual source might be older (in its oral origin) than Enuma Elish and the possibility must be considered at least 50-50.
The Rig Veda/Mandala 4/Hymn 42 - Wikisource, the free online library
The Vedic composition might back up some of what jar said.
Almost (pretty much) every other example is not proven to be as old as the Middle Eastern myths.
But back to the oldest strain of the Exodus that many prominent scholars see.
The view of the original exodus (in history) was that the Israelites fled in a ship by sea and composed a song to celebrate it. The mention of Philistia in the old song (chapter 15 of Exodus) dates it in the 12th century at the earliest.
It could have caused the Israelites to be attracted to myths of God defeating Yam (Sea), which included dragon slaying myths of the Canaanites (and also from whatever Hurrians were still around).
This view is backed up by the various strains and varieties of the dragon slaying language in the Hebrew Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 07-07-2016 12:47 PM jar has not replied

  
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