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Author Topic:   A good summary of so called human evolution.
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 137 of 184 (810395)
05-29-2017 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Davidjay
05-28-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Ancestors were in clades with different but similar names
Humans have not evolved, ...
Says the person who does not understand evolution ... or evidence ... or just doesn't want to accept the reality that shows evolution in every generation of every species on earth.
Every person is born with new mutations neither parent had. This is documented fact.
... humans remain humans.
Just as we remain apes, just as we remain primates, just as we remain Hominini, just as we remain Homininae, just as we remain Hominidae, just as we remain Hominoidae, just as we remain Hominoidea, just as we remain Catarrhini, just as we remain mammals, just as we remain vertebrates ...
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Davidjay, posted 05-28-2017 10:44 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 10:46 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 139 of 184 (810450)
05-29-2017 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Ancestors were humans, humans did not evolve
Curiously, your inability or deceit about understanding the answers you have been given, does not mean they are not answered. You have answers in depth, but reply with assertions at odds with the facts.
Bluster all you want, but YOU have yet to substantiate a single assertion you have made.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 10:46 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 156 of 184 (818331)
08-27-2017 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 7:33 AM


Re: Not one fossil
Welcome to the fray Porkandcheese,
Firstly I don't represent evolution or religion ok.
Sure ...
Interesting reading the replies. Many of them just automatically dismiss the facts presented by the op and others are just outright rude and offensive.
and some are inane and don't address the op.
But out of all these one eyed evolutionists ...
How rude and offensive.
... no one has been able to produce an example of fossils found to be ape/man. Not even one...
Wrong. But then you probably don't know what a transitional fossil is. Ignorance can be cured.
Wake up evos. This is not science. This is philosophy. Anti religious philosophy
and why are you so concerned, if you don't "represent" religion, ok?
Enjoy
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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Porkncheese, posted 08-27-2017 7:33 AM Porkncheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Porkncheese, posted 08-27-2017 9:12 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 158 of 184 (818348)
08-27-2017 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 9:12 AM


Re: Not one fossil
Ok then oh wise one please explain what a transitional fossil is ...
To begin with the proper term is "intermediate" ... as in intermediate between ancestor and descendant populations. Evolution occurs in populations, not individuals as each individual is a product of mutation and selection in a changing ecology.
(1) The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities for growth, development, survival and reproductive success in changing or different habitats.
This is not theory, it is observed objective empirical fact, documented in hundreds of peer reviewed scientific studies.
This is a two-step feedback response system that is repeated in each generation:
Like walking on first one foot and then the next. Every generation is intermediate and every individual in that population is intermediate.
... and some human examples.
Modern human, Australopithicus (lucy composite), and modern chimps. Do you see how Australopithicus is intermediate between human and chimp? Look at the hip bones in particular.
quote:
http://www.talkorigins.org/...mdesc/images/hominids2_big.jpg
A whole bunch of skulls showing intermediate stages in development over time. Chimp at one end, modern human at the other.
Why am I so concerned. Cos I'm searching for answers. Bought up by catholics I rejected the bible when I was old enough and looked to science only to find the same stuff. Unfounded stories.
Then you haven't really looked at science to see how it works.
In science hypothesis are based on objective empirical evidence and then used to predict something new that tests the hypothesis, and a theory is a tested hypothesis.
The theory's purpose is to explain all the evidence as well as can be explained, and the testing of a theory is never complete. They can be falsified but not proven, as each test only validates the theory while the next prediction result may invalidate it.
They are not "stories" they are well researched and tested explanations that are the best explanations of the reality we can establish at this point.
Both religion and biology need to wake up and accept the fact that know one knows for sure.
Only religion claims to. In science the results are tentative, however, the more tested they are the higher the confidence we have that they approach/approximate reality. Each theory built on the last one brings that approximation closer.
What is the term for that position anyway. I don't accept religion nor do I accept the biological theory.
Agnostic (and science is agnostic)
or confused
or just ignorant of biological theory.
A good place to start is Welcome to Evolution 101! by the Understanding Evolution team:
quote:
What is evolution and how does it work? Evolution 101 provides the nuts-and-bolts on the patterns and mechanisms of evolution. You can explore the following sections:
  • An introduction to evolution
    Evolution briefly defined and explained
  • The history of life: looking at the patterns
    How does evolution lead to the tree of life?
  • Mechanisms: the processes of evolution
    How does evolution work?
  • Microevolution
    How does evolution work on a small scale?
  • Speciation
    What are species anyway, and how do new ones evolve?
  • Macroevolution
    How does evolution work on a grand scale?
  • The big issues
    What are some of the big question

You can go at your own speed.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Porkncheese, posted 08-27-2017 9:12 AM Porkncheese has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 182 of 184 (818418)
08-28-2017 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 3:30 PM


Hi Porkandcheese,
Accepting religion growing up I then started to hear and learn the opinion of others. By the age of 16 I had rejected religion and just went along with evolution, big bang, all that. I didn't give it much thought again until I was in my 30's when I started to hear and learn the opinions of others. And after watching, listening and reading arguments for and against I'm not at all convinced that the biological theory of evolution is 100% fact. ...
No theory is 100% fact. Not. One. What we have are good approximations based on testing theories.
The theory of gravity for instance. Newton's theory
F=GmM/r2
Was a pretty good approximation, and in fact using it lands craft on the moon and mars, but it has been superseded by Einstein's theory of relativity ... because Newton's theory did not explain the orbit of Mercury accurately.
Theories try to approximate fact by explaining known facts, and then they are tested against new facts, or by making predictions that either come true (validating the theory) or are falsified (invalidating the theory).
... Much of the so called supporting evidence is inconclusive or subject to various assumptions.
What you need to do is evaluate how good those assumptions are -- are they are WAGs (wild ass guesses) or are they educated inferences based on what we know about how things work.
You see I'm in engineering and at university I studied physics where mathematics dictates everything. There is only one correct answer. Any other answer is incorrect. There are no estimates or assumptions. ...
As we saw above, with gravity, there is much in physics that is not that cut and dry. There are a lot of assumptions involved, one being that how things behave today is how they behaved in the past.
Math is used to put a framework on those assumptions to make models of reality based on theory. But math does not control the universe, the model is not reality, but an approximation. If it is wrong reality doesn't change, the math is adjusted to fit the new knowledge. Hence Einstein's relativity supersedes Newton's gravity. Different math.
... There are no estimates or assumptions. There is no ifs buts or maybes. Everything is observable and measurable. ...
There are a lot of assumptions and estimates in engineering. Engineering is the art of applying scientific knowledge for practical purposes. Building a bridge, the engineer assumes the steel used is of a consistent quality and strength, he doesn't know the actual strength of each steel beam, so he uses an approximation based on testing steel. He knows that quality and consistency varies even in the best steel, he knows the quality and consistency of construction varies, and he knows the loads he is designing for vary from day to day and year to year, so he uses a factor of safety to ensure the bridge design is adequate to the need. The factors of safety are also the result of experience and knowledge of what has worked in similar situations before.
Every bridge is a theoretical design based on assumptions and estimates, but they aren't WAGs, they are well tested educated inferences based on what we know about how things work.
... Everything is observable and measurable. Biology, as I'm learning, is nothing like that. ...
Evolution processes are observable and measurable. Read some peer reviewed articles and see. Population genetics would not be possible without the maths and without observations and measurements.
Like the earth is 6.5 to 6.6 billion. Why the 100 million discrepancy? Thats just unheard of in maths and physics. Not only is it acceptable but it is declared to be fact in Biology.
Curiously biology has nothing to do or say about the age of the earth. (and I see you have been corrected on the actual age). What biology does is accept the age of the earth from the fields of geology and physics as a number we can have high confidence in, even though we don't know the actual age for absolute sure.
Like your example of Australopiticus being a transitional or intermediate is very convincing. But many conclude that it is just a species of ape and that not enough bones were recovered to conclude it to be human. No hand or feet bones, only tiny fragments of skull and a few other bones. ...
Actually my example was a composite skeleton of Australopithicus based on Lucy, the "first family" and "Little foot" among other skeleton bits and pieces of this species recovered from numerous fossils, and observing that it is an ape species is not an earth shaking observation. Even the people making the finds and classifying them would agree it is a species of ape.
Because of course it is an ape, as are humans and chimps. Otherwise it would not be intermediate in form between two ape species.
... In engineering we cannot make any assumptions for the consequences could be catastrophically fatal to thousands. Nothing is released before being totally confirmed of its safety and functionality. ...
As noted above with the bridge example, engineering is laced with assumptions and estimates, and factors of safety are used as an extra precaution to make the product functional and safe. But bridges still fail. Every time a bridge fails there is an investigation to see what was the cause - design error,bad construction, bad materials
... or something else - and when necessary the design process is upgraded to ensure the next bridge will not fail.
That's why the Steel Construction Manual is now in it's 15th Edition.
... Australopiticus is a guess isn't it? One opinion vs another.
Nope. The fossils are facts, the location and age of the fossil are facts. The name it is given is a fact.
You show me a series of skulls claiming it to show evolution. You are effectively asking me now for the same thing religion asks... Faith. You are asking me to have faith in your word that these specimens are in fact links in the evolution of man. Can you see how that is not acceptable for myself? Why I must question everything and not just go along with it all.
Like the Australopithicus afarensis skeleton {note (B) Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My and (C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My in the picture} each fossil is a fact, each age is a fact and each location is a fact. They are embedded in the temporal-spacial matrix, and their relation on to the others is not only in time but in space -- you can't have hereditary lineage that jumps all over the globe, there has to be a path before descent can be inferred from the evidence.
The theory of evolution predicts a lineage of descent, and it provides the best explanation we have for this sequence of fossil skulls. Every fossil found is a test for the theory and it's ability to explain the facts, the objective empirical evidence of the fossils.
Iv heard many say that no transitional (intermediate or whatever you prefer to call them) fossils have ever been found. Archaeopteryx is apparently the only example of evolution, supposedly showing the transition from reptiles to birds. Only one example. Would you call that conclusive evidence?
Usually on creationist sites. This is known as a PRATT. CC200: Transitional fossils
So by your statement you must agree that the theory cannot be regarded as "Gospel". There may be some supporting evidence but our knowledge of the subject is just not enough to say with 100% certainty that every aspect of our theory is correct. ...
Again, no theory is ever 100% certainty. Not. One. -- see gravity.
... Someone else said that the theory doesn't not even address the beginning of life. ...
Correct. Evolution occurs from generation to generation, and that means it starts when there is a generation to evolve. The theory predicts common ancestry, but that is a prediction of the theory not a foundation for it.
... So if we cannot explain the beginning of life ... then why are we claiming it to be unquestionable fact and teaching it to our kids.
Again, this is a creationist argument. I would challenge you to produce a science textbook teaching it as "unquestionable fact" rather than the best explanation we have.
... and our fossils don't really support evolution without an artists impression ....
Except that the fossils do really support evolution, even without artist impressions. Each fossil is a test of the ability of the theory of evolution to explain all the evidence. So far no fossil has invalidated the theory, and I would call that strong support for the theory.
I feel I'm going to be totally abused for this post but I challenge anyone to be logical, look at it like Isaac Newton and lay down some decent evidence. Part of your flow chart is "predict something" well what has been predicted?
Tiktaalik
Another prediction is the production of nested hierarchies as species diversify and diverge from parent population s into reproductively isolated populations.
With multiple such events, a pattern is formed that looks like a branching bush or tree: the tree of descent from common ancestor populations. Each branching point is a node for a clade of the parent species at the node point and all their descendants, and with multiple speciation events we see a pattern form of clades branching from parent ancestor species and nesting within larger clades branching from older parent ancestor species.
Where A, B, C and G represent speciation events and the common ancestor populations of a clade that includes the common ancestor species and all their descendants: C and below form a clade that is part of the B clade, B and below form a clade that is also part of the A clade; G and below also form a clade that is also part of the A clade, but the G clade is not part of the B clade.
The process of forming a nested hierarchy by descent of new species from common ancestor populations, via the combination of anagenesis and cladogenesis, and resulting in an increase in the diversity of life, is sometimes called macroevolution.
The arrangement based on the fossil evidence is one source of testing of this prediction. Another is the genetic evidence. There is no reason for both to show the same pattern if the process creating them is not evolution.
They both show the same patterns, over and over and over and over. In fact this test by genetics is likely the biggest test for the theory of evolution that has yet occurred.
... But in the end isn't it still essentially one cell that created everything? One cell that multiplied on its own?
That is what the evidence appears to show. The first known fossil life from over 3.5 billion years ago is from a blue-green algae making mats called stromatolites.
This frustrates me. There are a lot of things that strike me as being religious about the whole thing. Like how offensive people get, unable to have a normal conversation about it, unable to listen to reason or take another perspective on it often resorting to insults to exit the debate. Saying it is "Gospel" when they know that the theory has much speculation and conjecture, it already has many pieces of evidence against it and is subject to further new findings in future studies that could disprove it.. The exaggerations of everything like see how you presented all those skulls to me as if it were 100% fact. Or how you presented Lucy not with the few bones that were found but as a complete skeleton. ...
As noted I said "Australopithicus (lucy composite)" rather than just Lucy, and I have clarified this further above. We have several fossils of Australopithicus afarensis, not just "lucy" ... and those provide most the missing bits (some are mirrored left right).
... Saying it is "Gospel" when they know that the theory has much speculation and conjecture, it already has many pieces of evidence against it ...
Show me one.
... This is very misleading and is the type of stuff I saw in religion. People modifying fossils, frauds and fakes to trick the average civilian. ...
Who uncovers the fakes and frauds ... scientists or religious people?
Or do you mean the type of hogwash in the Creation "Museum" ...
... And this automatic assumption that I'm a preacher really makes u guys seem unbelievably bad and untrustworthy. Everyone here has labelled me a preacher. But is religion a part of my argument... Not at all. I see anyone with any religious arguments gets discriminated against, shamed and outcast. ...
Curiously, the evidence is in your words, your phrases, the heavy reliance of creationist drivel and PRATTs, rather than science and your poor, undereducated knowledge of evolution. Playing the victim of discrimination is a typical ploy.
Im not here to take any sides. Rather just to have people admit that their religion, science, doctrine or whatever you like to call it could have some details that are incorrect. That it could actually contain things that are not totally true and/or cannot be explained.
Science already does. Explicitly. It also has the best explanation, because that explanation is tested and tested and tested, modified and upgraded whenever possible to improve the approximation to reality that we currently have.
Ok you can all begin your attack on me now...
Or we can try to help you.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Porkncheese, posted 08-27-2017 3:30 PM Porkncheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
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