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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 61 of 591 (81029)
01-27-2004 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by roboto85
01-27-2004 2:34 AM


How can god lack the ability to stop our actions? That would contradict his nature. By definition, god MUST have the ability.
But if he did lack the ability, he would still be accountable, after all he lit the fuse knowing full well what was gonna blow up. Like the saying:
Like a bullet, once it's fired no one can control it.
But god still fired the bullet. So he is responsible for the result of that action.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by roboto85, posted 01-27-2004 2:34 AM roboto85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Yaro, posted 01-27-2004 2:48 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 62 of 591 (81030)
01-27-2004 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Yaro
01-27-2004 2:45 AM


screw up... sorry. hehe
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Yaro, posted 01-27-2004 2:45 AM Yaro has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 63 of 591 (81032)
01-27-2004 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by roboto85
01-27-2004 2:34 AM


Ok, what if He just had foreknowledge and not the ability to do something about it.
Then no, he wouldn't be responsible. But he wouldn't be all-powerful, either. If you're comfortable with that, I guess that's fine. I don't see what the point of such a God would be.
But he'd really have to be unable, not just bound by some rules or something. He'd literally have to lack the power to stop evil in the world. The only God that is consistent with the evidence is one that is either immoral or powerless. Are you comfortable putting all your faith in that God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by roboto85, posted 01-27-2004 2:34 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 591 (81043)
01-27-2004 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Yaro
01-26-2004 12:24 PM


Did God create evil and what if He did?
Hey Guys. Lemme get into this lil go round wit yall...
Yaro=
At some point god laid out the ground rules for how morality was gonna function.
OK.The ground rules were simple. "Listen to me."
At some point he said to himself "ok, there is gonna be this stuff called good, and this other stuff called evil. And Im gonna make this dude who will betray me and ultimetly lead thousands of my creations to hell.
No. He made the "knowledge of Good and Evil",only to give a reality to free choice, yet told us not to go near it.If we were innocent, it was the snake that tricked us.Besides, we do not know who or what is in hell anyway.
It's god we are talking about here. He has unlimited choices. He could have designed the universe an infinite amount of different ways, yet he chose to create good and evil.
Again,He created the knowledge of good and evil. we chose to disobey. There is One way to obey, and lots of ways to disobey. I will admit that the reasoning of God is unknown.His reasoning is superior to anything that our finite minds can come up with,however. For mere humans to even attempt to put Him on trial is laughable,by definition.I suppose that He knows that we do not understand. Why can't we just submit when He gives us options to do so?
System of choices or not, evil is in this world by virture of the god who designed it.
Yes, I will agree with you that the Garden analogy happened before you or I were born. Perhaps any one of us would have listened and not touched, eh? Besides, how would a world of infinite good choices be any different? Hmmm..if we had that kinda freedom, we would be like God. Humans think that they are more complex than they really are. We are mortals with overgrown imaginations. Crashfrog states that
God has the ability to see ahead and the ability to prevent suffering. He's morally negligent if he decides not to use those powers.
yeah? Who appointed a mere man as a judge over anything? Its His universe, and even if we dare call Him an evil God, it looks like we are stuck. I guess it IS easier to deny His existence.If He makes no sense to us and our lofty wisdom, we can do without Him!(NOT)
By his inaction, God becomes an accomplice to every evil act.
except that little action of giving up His Son to redeem us for OUR initial BAD choice.
If God is love then he's ten times as negligent.
so what would be our sentence and punishment for God, if we could be allowed to sentence Him?
The question is why a moral God with the power to do something about it allows evil to persist.
Evil needs a vessel to be evil. We are the vessels for evil. God is allowing us to be human. He has given us a way out. What do ya want Him to do? Give us the option of being unable to make our own choices?
There's an infinite number of ways to do the right thing.
Oh really? No human can do an infinite amount of any choice. We are finite. Like I said before, there is one way to do the right thing if God is real. Listen to Him. There are numerous alternatives when we choose not to listen. News Flash: They are not "all good".
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-27-2004]
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:24 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 5:55 AM Phat has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 65 of 591 (81044)
01-27-2004 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
01-27-2004 5:42 AM


It was not some baby that He tricked.
Actually, by definition, that's exactly what it was. What else would you call somebody who didn't know the difference between good and evil?
Who appointed a mere man as a judge over anything?
Hey, I'm just using the power to distinguish between good and evil. You know, the power the Bible says I have, the power God says is just like his:
quote:
Genesis 3:22:
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
and even if we dare call Him an evil God, it looks like we are stuck.
Well, if you don't like God, try not believing in him. It's not like God is going to do anything about it. He's apparently either powerless or totally uninterested. If he even exists, that is.
except that little action of giving up His Son to redeem us for OUR initial BAD choice.
No, he's accomplice to that too, because he didn't have to put the tree there. He's God, remember? He knew what was going to happen, and he could have done something about it. If that's what brought sin into the world, that's at least partly his fault, too.
so what would we sentence God to?
You know, not everything is about judgement. Also, we're talking about something that doesn't even exist. Would it be in our power to punish God? Well, God must want something that we have, right? Or why else would an evil God have created us? Whatever it is, we can just not give it to him.
What do ya want Him to do? Give us the option of being unable to make our own choices?
There's plenty of situations where our choice is restricted for the greater good. They're called "laws." I notice that nobody ever accuses Congress of trying to restrict our free will.
No human can do an infinite amount of any choice. We are finite.
Sure, we are. But the choices are infinite, even if you take away evil. Every choice has ultimately one outcome. But there's infinite potential each time, even if you just count the good" choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 01-27-2004 5:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 01-27-2004 6:21 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 591 (81045)
01-27-2004 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by crashfrog
01-27-2004 5:55 AM


Good God,Bad God, or No God
1objective \b-"jek-tiv\ adj 1 : of or relating to an object or end 2 : existing outside and independent of the mind 3 : of, relating to, or constituting a grammatical case marking typically the object of a verb or preposition 4 : treating or dealing with facts without distortion by personal feelings or prejudices objectively adv objectiveness n objectivity \'b-'jek-"ti-v-t\ n
2objective n 1 : the lens (as in a microscope) nearest the object and forming an image of it 2 : an aim, goal, or end of action
subjective \(')sb-"jek-tiv\ adj 1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subject 2 : of, relating to, or arising within one's self or mind in contrast to what is outside : personal subjectively adv subjectivity \-'jek-"ti-v-t\ n
So we have choices. Potential is said to be infinite, as far as wisdom goes. I think that human potential is limited by time. We were told that to partake of the knowledge of good and evil would lead to death. Assume that before this point,l we were infinite or eternal if you will.
Someone stated that good and evil were subjective terms. God, however, is objective to those who choose to deny Him..outside of the mind...perhaps as a fantasy...yet is subjective or personal to those who accept Him. Now...if He becomes subjective to us, we then become subjective to Him. Evil is no longer our problem. If, however, we remain objective, we are responsible for achieving our destiny. Hence, free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 5:55 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5844 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 67 of 591 (81085)
01-27-2004 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
01-26-2004 4:03 PM


Re: Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
Hi,
quote:
OK..for the record, how is my initial analogy flawed? I must be dense.
No need to call yourself dense.. I'll have a stab at your analogy anyways:
quote:
1) People known as Christians would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time.
Does not follow from your premise ('What if they were real...'). Also, you are erecting a strawman in claiming that Christians are being made to look ignorant and stupid. I claim, they are not. I think, pretty much everyone on the forum will agree that religion is a personal choice. The point, where many will draw the line, is when religion is taken from its private background and used as a means to further a political agenda. This is where severe discussion and possible ridicule sets in, but that's not caused by believe, lack thereof, or the existence of any supernatural beings.
quote:
2) Other religions would appear tranquil and quiet. Satan would have no need to mess with them.
(a) They do not necessarily appear tranquil and quiet. See other threads on this forum, where certain (very pronounced) Christians actually claim the opposite.
(b) This, again does not follow from your premise.
quote:
4) Many would call themselves Christians who were not.
Again, this does not follow. There is simply no need for this to happen (just from the fact that both Satan and Christ were real).
quote:
5) The Bible would be ridiculed and scorned for its fantasy, yet concepts such as alternative universes and the Tao of Physics would be reverently considered.
Take it from a physicist, they are not.
Your claim about the Bible being ridiculed, however, merits some attention:
The discussion of bible errancy or of contradictions contained in the bible stems from the claim of inerrancy (and not vice versa). Personally coming from an European Catholic background, let me tell you that the first time that I stumbled over these types of discussion was less than a year ago. If you accept that the bible is a collection of stories, defining a religious background, collected and written over a period of 1000 or more years, then you will view them just as that and accept or even expect errors. The presence of these errors will, however, not affect the way you perceive the contents of the book.
quote:
7) Satan would not let us know about him. He would make us think that we were the ones in control of our future by refusing to bow to anyone!
Let the poor supernatural being do its job, will you..
(and what happened to free will anyway?)
quote:
8) Anytime that the topic was brought up, people would attempt to either refute the basic message or distract attention from it.
This, again, does not follow from your original premise ('Suppose they were real').
quote:
Second, my analogy is a "what if" analogy. Explain how flaws can exist? Perhaps in keeping tune with my analogy, Satan is using human intellect to ridicule itself.
Any analogy, any argument can be flawed. Yours is flawed because your points do not follow from the premise. Where, btw, do you take the notion that "Satan is using human intellect to ridicule itself"?
my best regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-26-2004 4:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 01-27-2004 11:42 AM helena has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 591 (81096)
01-27-2004 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by helena
01-27-2004 11:15 AM


This just don't hold water...er...spirit
Hey Alex! My original premise was a bit hastily constructed and poorly thought out, but it stems from a quote that I read from the Christian Apologist C.S. Lewis.
Satans neatest trick is convincing us that he does not exist.
The idea of Christians being ridiculed and made to look stupid does not come from watching the Creationists get flayed about in this message board! Rather, I remember here in Denver shortly after the Columbine High School shootings when Franklin Graham came to town and got lambasted for his message. I have previously noted that when other religious leaders such as the Dalai Lama speak at conventions, they rarely have groups of protesters ranting against them as do the Christians. Perhaps you are correct in calling it political,however. As in the gay marriage debate. All too often, even when Christians may be right, they are wrong. Personally, I would label myself as a liberal to moderate absolutist. I am pro choice as opposed to pro life, because I do not believe in legislating morality. If people want to make everything relative, let them do it. God will deal with us all later, should we need it. One last thing that I have observed. Two groups of people seem by my observation to be oppressed by something. One group is the non believers who often smugly inform us why god is a myth and a fantasy. The other group is the self professed believers who defiantly and desparately insist that we see God as obviously as they claim to see Him.
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by helena, posted 01-27-2004 11:15 AM helena has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 591 (81225)
01-27-2004 6:30 PM


I should point out that's hardly a response. At issue is not what Yaro believes but what he thinks you believe, i.e. that God is all-powerful and good. It doesn't matter what Yaro thinks. What matters is whether or not the world we observe is consistent with the idea of a moral, omnipotent God.
I was giving a hypothetical situation as to some comments that were made by Yaro. Why can't I do the same, if this is all Yaro is doing?
It is societies that create the idea of evil and good, not gods.
As I had stated before that quote, I was going along with what Yaro believed to be the case. I was venturing from the argument to attempt to prove a point Yaro was seeming to have trouble grasping. As I stated, why can Yaro go of course from the argument with his beliefs, and I can't lean towards his beliefs for a moment. Could you be biased? Maybe that's why biased people shouldn't join in arguments where they didn't take the trouble in considering where someone else is coming from.
It's not your fault your biased. Your atheist and your going along with the atheist argument for the most part. From your perspective, I dont blame you.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-27-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 8:13 PM roboto85 has replied
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 01-28-2004 12:33 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 70 of 591 (81249)
01-27-2004 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by roboto85
01-27-2004 6:30 PM


I was giving a hypothetical situation as to some comments that were made by Yaro.
That's not what you appeared to be doing. What appeared to be happening was that Yaro was pointing out how your position lead to a ridiculous conclusion. You responded by pointing out that, under what Yaro believes, he'd never come to that conclusion.
Can't you see that's a ridiculous way to argue? It's like you're making Yaro's points for him. It's like if I told you "if you keep driving so fast, you'll drive right off a cliff" and you countered with "Oh yeah? Well, with the way you drive we wouldn't ever drive off a cliff."
It's like you tried to prove him wrong by totally agreeing with everything he said. Suicide as a debate tactic. It's funny to watch, I'll tell you that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by roboto85, posted 01-27-2004 6:30 PM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by roboto85, posted 01-27-2004 8:45 PM crashfrog has replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 591 (81256)
01-27-2004 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by crashfrog
01-27-2004 8:13 PM


Ya know, for a god who hates evil so much, he sure made alot of it.
Yeah, well Yaro shouldn't have been arguing about something he didn't believe in the first place. That would be like me saying, "For a nothing who doesn't exist, it sure put a lot of wonderful things in the world." It was a pointless statement, and a pointless argument.
I don't believe a nothing exists, therefore I don't believe it put wonderful things in the world. He doesn't believe a God exists, therefore he doesn't believe it put evil into the world. That's why I had to attack his statement.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 8:13 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Yaro, posted 01-27-2004 9:03 PM roboto85 has replied
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 10:35 PM roboto85 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 72 of 591 (81260)
01-27-2004 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by roboto85
01-27-2004 8:45 PM


Yeah, well Yaro shouldn't have been arguing about something he didn't believe in the first place. That would be like me saying, "For a nothing who doesn't exist, it sure put a lot of wonderful things in the world." It was a pointless statement, and a pointless argument.
No it wasn't, I was never arguing for the existance of nothing. Just the non existance of the christain god.
Of cource I belive in someting, the universe, trees, flowers, air, etc. Heck, It would be dumb to belive in nothing
I don't believe a nothing exists, therefore I don't believe it put wonderful things in the world. He doesn't believe a God exists, therefore he doesn't believe it put evil into the world. That's why I had to attack his statement.
I was simply pointing out, as the beginning of this thread asked us to presuppose, that "what if god existed?". Following that train of thought logicaly, God must have made evil. hence my statement:
Ya know, for a god who hates evil so much, he sure made alot of it.
So if God exists, he made evil. He hates evil, why did he make it?
Not to start arguing in circles... can you disprove athisim?
Let me ask you roboto85, What if god dosn't exist?
What would that mean to you about good and evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by roboto85, posted 01-27-2004 8:45 PM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by roboto85, posted 01-27-2004 9:24 PM Yaro has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 591 (81265)
01-27-2004 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Yaro
01-27-2004 9:03 PM


So if God exists, he made evil. He hates evil, why did he make it?
Haha, Oh man you're not even asking that question! Unless you want to go through this whole thing over again.
Let me ask you roboto85, What if god dosn't exist?
What would that mean to you about good and evil?
I don't know, I guess they wouldn't even exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Yaro, posted 01-27-2004 9:03 PM Yaro has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 591 (81275)
01-27-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by roboto85
01-27-2004 8:45 PM


Yeah, well Yaro shouldn't have been arguing about something he didn't believe in the first place.
It's called "sarcasm." Maybe you've heard of it. (Self-referential sarcasm!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by roboto85, posted 01-27-2004 8:45 PM roboto85 has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 591 (81280)
01-27-2004 10:54 PM


Yes, I knew he was being sarcastic. And thats probably the only reason I decided to debate with him. He's all like 'hahaha, God sure made a lot of evil for somebody who doesn't like evil dur.' The argument wasn't sarcastic though.

  
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