Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   random questions
notsosure
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 20 (80964)
01-26-2004 11:41 PM


The question's I pose are only how I understand them and may not be actual truths. Basically I want to understand them so I can draw my own conclusions. I live in Agnostic land right now.
Christians as well as other religions believe that their religion is the only true/right religion. Historicaly this way of thinking has lead to bloodshed and they feel this is justified or okay because their God says so. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, then basically I can only conclude that religious indifference will be the cause of our extiction. I think we are all equal, no one faith is superior then the other. Too many egos.
How can anyone including myself say that one religion or the other is the right one without looking into every religion. Isn't that like saying Vanilla icecream is the best flavor, but you will not try any other flavor.
Do you think of Agnostics as too lazy to come up with their own beliefs? Whether in (a)God or not at all. Or is it that we will always be in search of the truth even if we never find it?
Comments please
I have more Q's, but hey have slipped my mind at this time.
[This message has been edited by notsosure, 01-26-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 12:23 AM notsosure has not replied
 Message 3 by :æ:, posted 01-27-2004 1:29 AM notsosure has not replied
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:56 AM notsosure has not replied
 Message 10 by truthlover, posted 02-23-2004 5:54 AM notsosure has not replied
 Message 13 by Dr Jack, posted 02-23-2004 8:29 AM notsosure has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 20 (80970)
01-27-2004 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by notsosure
01-26-2004 11:41 PM


How can anyone including myself say that one religion or the other is the right one without looking into every religion.
Myself, I take a different view. Knowing that all religions claim exclusive correctness, I come to the conclusion that they're all wrong. Hence, atheism.
Do you think of Agnostics as too lazy to come up with their own beliefs?
Agnostics are people who are very careful about how they know what they know. Since they don't know that there's a God, and they don't know that there isn't one, they come to the conclusion that there's no evidence to support a belief that God exists.
In other words, they're careful atheists. Myself, I hold both that position and the position that we can know that what most people think of as God doesn't exist, so I have a little "stronger" belief than agnostics, so I don't consider myself one. I don't of course think that we can know that all possible Gods don't exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notsosure, posted 01-26-2004 11:41 PM notsosure has not replied

  
:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7184 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 3 of 20 (80989)
01-27-2004 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by notsosure
01-26-2004 11:41 PM


Hi there, notsosure! Welcome to EvC!
notsosure writes:
Christians as well as other religions believe that their religion is the only true/right religion. Historicaly this way of thinking has lead to bloodshed and they feel this is justified or okay because their God says so. Am I understanding this correctly?
I would say in a very general way, and really only historically, yes. I think the current prevailing attitude of mainstream Christianity is less offensive than it has been in the more distant past, and even then it seems that when Christian tenets were leveraged to defend some atrocious misdeeds, it only happened in relatively confined periods of history.
How can anyone including myself say that one religion or the other is the right one without looking into every religion. Isn't that like saying Vanilla icecream is the best flavor, but you will not try any other flavor.
Good analogy, and pretty representative of the way most believers come upon their faith. Although, it's not entirely impossible to be born into the correct religion just by pure chance -- assuming that there is ONE correct religion.
Do you think of Agnostics as too lazy to come up with their own beliefs?
Heavens to Betsy, no! As crashfrog said, they are simply more careful, and there's nothing wrong with that.
While you may not be comfortable wearing the hat, so to speak, I would say that if you don't presently believe that a god or gods exist, then you would be an agnostic atheist. Atheism isn't necessarily saying "There is no God," it can also be just saying "I don't presently believe a god or gods to exist." An agnostic athiest says "I don't know if a god or gods exist, but right now I don't see a reason to believe that any do."
Or is it that we will always be in search of the truth even if we never find it?
I don't think that there is any one truth to be found and be contented with. Instead, I think there is endless truth to continually discover. The more truth I find, the more truth I discover there remains to be found.
Blessings,
::

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notsosure, posted 01-26-2004 11:41 PM notsosure has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 1:34 AM :æ: has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 20 (80991)
01-27-2004 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by :æ:
01-27-2004 1:29 AM


I think the current prevailing attitude of mainstream Christianity is less offensive than it has been in the more distant past
I don't know about that. I'm deeply offended every time I hear Christians claim that it's religious discrimination to try to prevent them from discriminating. As though they have a legal right to deny other people legal rights.
I'd almost rather they just took potshots at abortion doctors rather than trying to twist religious protection in that way. Almost.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by :æ:, posted 01-27-2004 1:29 AM :æ: has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by :æ:, posted 01-27-2004 1:44 AM crashfrog has replied

  
:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7184 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 5 of 20 (80995)
01-27-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
01-27-2004 1:34 AM


I don't know about that. I'm deeply offended every time I hear Christians claim that it's religious discrimination to try to prevent them from discriminating. As though they have a legal right to deny other people legal rights.
Maybe I should've said that it's less violent on such a large and organized scale as it has been in the past. My only point is that we haven't seen anything quite on par with the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, etc... in quite a long time. That's my humble opinion, at least. I'd listen to your argument if you felt otherwise or that there's something I'm overlooking.
EDIT: thinking about it some more, I suppose you might compare the "crusade" against abortion doctors, for example, somewhat on par with the Witch Trials. I wouldn't be surpised to find that there have been more abortion doctors murdered than there were "witches" actually burned at the stake.
[This message has been edited by ::, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 1:34 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 1:50 AM :æ: has not replied
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 01-27-2004 2:00 AM :æ: has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 20 (80997)
01-27-2004 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by :æ:
01-27-2004 1:44 AM


Maybe I should've said that it's less violent on such a large and organized scale as it has been in the past.
Well, I certainly agree with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by :æ:, posted 01-27-2004 1:44 AM :æ: has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by truthlover, posted 02-23-2004 5:57 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 20 (81005)
01-27-2004 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by :æ:
01-27-2004 1:44 AM


I wouldn't be surpised to find that there have been more abortion doctors murdered than there were "witches" actually burned at the stake.
I'll see if I can find the numbers but it I remember correctly you're out by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude.
quote:
Nor were witches secret pagans serving an ancient Triple Goddess and Horned God, as the neopagans claim. In fact, no witch was ever executed for worshiping a pagan deity. Matilda Gage's estimate of nine million women burned is more than 200 times the best current estimate of 30,000 to 50,000 killed during the 400 years from 1400 to 1800-a large number but no Holocaust. And it wasn't all a burning time. Witches were hanged, strangled, and beheaded as well. Witch-hunting was not woman-hunting: At least 20 percent of all suspected witches were male.
From: Page not found - Crisis Magazine
I can't vouch for it's accuracy.
[This message has been edited by Admin, 02-19-2004]

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by :æ:, posted 01-27-2004 1:44 AM :æ: has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 20 (87439)
02-19-2004 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by notsosure
01-26-2004 11:41 PM


Random Questions, serious Answers
Tom, let me try and answer your questions based on my Belief and Opinion.
notsosure writes:
I think we are all equal, no one faith is superior then the other.
I think we are all equal as well. Many views look at God, yet He looks at all of us as one. For God so loved__________that He gave His One and Only Son... Fill in the blank with a name and that name is one soul. God sees His Bride as those whom he chose and who chose Him. Hope this helps.
notsosure writes:
Vanilla icecream is the best flavor, but you will not try any other flavor.
quite honestly, Vanilla IS my favorite and I don't want to try all of the others. You may, if you wish.
notsosure writes:
Or is it that we will always be in search of the truth even if we never find it?
By definition, I think that agnostics are those who keep looking. If they find Him, they are no longer agnostics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notsosure, posted 01-26-2004 11:41 PM notsosure has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 02-22-2004 8:53 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 02-23-2004 8:20 AM Phat has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 9 of 20 (88035)
02-22-2004 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
02-19-2004 5:56 AM


Re: Random Questions, serious Answers
Phatboy are you saying you are not willing to do research into Other religions? If so why? Are you afraid you might be wrong? Will you not try a new food when you have the chance? I mean I always say try it once.... If you don't like it don't eat it!
Back when I was 15(when I started questioning my religion) I did alot of research into Other religions... I found it interesting that there are So many now and many more that existed in the past. I concluded that since there where so many NONE of them can be the 100% truth if any have any truth to them at all.
For a number of years I was a theist As I couldn't figure out how things can appear out of nowhere without a god later at 21 I had a thought. I wondered Where did a god/gods come from.... Why does it/they break the one rule that made me a theist? I then Concluded That If a god has always been there why couldn't the Universe have always been here? Why Did it need to have been created? Why does Anything need to be created to exist? So now I am an agnostic. yes there could be god... but its also just a possible there isn't....
I don't expect to become an atheist As I would rather say I don't know... I am now 25 and as an agnostic I AM NOT looking for a religion!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 10 of 20 (88090)
02-23-2004 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by notsosure
01-26-2004 11:41 PM


Historicaly this way of thinking has lead to bloodshed and they feel this is justified or okay because their God says so. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, then basically I can only conclude that religious indifference will be the cause of our extiction.
I don't think it will lead to our extinction. We survived most of the world being under the leadership of religion-based governments, and now much of the world is not. If religion couldn't extinguish us over the last few millennia, I suspect it's not going to now.
Historicaly this way of thinking has lead to bloodshed and they feel this is justified or okay because their God says so. Am I understanding this correctly?
Unfortunately, this seems true to me. This issue is the toughest one for me as a believer. I've survived the transition to believing in evolution, and I've survived a lot of the kind of arguments I've heard on these boards, but this one is tough; real tough.
The fact is, Jesus didn't preach this kind of religion (based on the Gospels), but if Jesus is the Son of the God of the Israelites, and if the Torah represents the will of God, then Jesus' Father ordered the genocide of several groups of people. So while it's easy to defend Jesus' preaching (I think), it's pretty hard to defend his Father's actions.
So now, what do I do, so that I can in some way justify my status as a believer in Jesus? That's the question for me.
Here's my current answer. The Israelites did indeed conquer Canaan and produce a kingdom. Joshua and Judges disagree on exactly how that happened. Archeologists tell us the Judges description is the more accurate one. Either way, it wasn't written down until later, maybe much later.
I don't think God ordered the extermination of the rest of the Canaanites. I think the Israelites conquered the land of Canaan, driving out or taking over the other tribes of the area, and later they wrote down their history, however accurately or inaccurately. I don't think God wanted any particular history, but I do think he took a people for himself, the nation of Israel. When the time was right, he sent his Son to make a new nation; one that didn't have a government or even a land. It would consist not just of Israel, but of every tongue, tribe, and people, and it would not have an army, nor conquer by force.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notsosure, posted 01-26-2004 11:41 PM notsosure has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 02-23-2004 9:05 AM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 11 of 20 (88091)
02-23-2004 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
01-27-2004 1:50 AM


:ae: writes:
Maybe I should've said that it's less violent on such a large and organized scale as it has been in the past.
crashfrog writes:
Well, I certainly agree with that.
I agree, too, but it's only fair to point out that it's probably only true because of circumstances. Restore large and organized Christian (or most any other religion) governments, and I think it's safe to say that you'll see large and organized violence again. I would present the smaller scale violence in Ireland and the Middle East as my evidence for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 1:50 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 12 of 20 (88104)
02-23-2004 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
02-19-2004 5:56 AM


Re: Random Questions, serious Answers
I think that's a good post Phatboy and I'd like to add to it. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. Also, when Jesus spoke and acted his actions were basically - sometimes, aimed at everyone. Remember when Jesus fed the five thousand?
Can you recall Christ saying " feed only the ones who believe and are not atheist/agnostic/pharisee etc "
- I certainly do not recall Jesus saying that. Also, Jesus said love your enemy aswell as your neighbour. At one time he said it is better to love those that hate you than to love those that love you. All I see here - as in, war makers who call themselves Christian is people who have failed to read their New Testament.
I certainly love all agnostics and have nothing against there somewhat neutral position. Isn't this simply about people who fail to adhere properly to their religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 02-19-2004 5:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 13 of 20 (88105)
02-23-2004 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by notsosure
01-26-2004 11:41 PM


Do you think of Agnostics as too lazy to come up with their own beliefs? Whether in (a)God or not at all. Or is it that we will always be in search of the truth even if we never find it?
I think Agnostism is too ill-defined a term to be applied meaningfully. The original Agnostics claimed that it was impossible to know whether god exists or not until death ("No knowledge until death"); I can't say I think much of their position. Some Agnostics simply don't care - that's cool; there's enough in this world to care about without fussing about god. And some (as an earlier poster mentioned) are simply careful about what they know or don't - although personally I think the label 'Atheist' fits these better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notsosure, posted 01-26-2004 11:41 PM notsosure has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 20 (88108)
02-23-2004 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by truthlover
02-23-2004 5:54 AM


quote:
If religion couldn't extinguish us over the last few millennia, I suspect it's not going to now.
Except that the technology to quickly vaporize millions and kill millions more over several more weeks, plus make the shattered land uninhabitable for years, is available to religious extremists now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by truthlover, posted 02-23-2004 5:54 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Coragyps, posted 02-23-2004 9:21 AM nator has not replied
 Message 16 by ThingsChange, posted 02-23-2004 9:51 AM nator has not replied
 Message 18 by truthlover, posted 02-23-2004 10:52 AM nator has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 15 of 20 (88111)
02-23-2004 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
02-23-2004 9:05 AM


Schraf! Don't talk about our president like that! He's not a religious ex.....
Oh,sorry. Carry on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 02-23-2004 9:05 AM nator has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024