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Author Topic:   Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 76 of 518 (808581)
05-11-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Percy
05-11-2017 2:06 PM


Re: The YEC model requires ...
Basically, if we all differ from Adam and Eve on just 1% of our coding genes, then take one gene, examine it in 100 people, they should mostly have the original 4 alleles, but we might expect 1 or 2 exceptions.
So, if we see something completely different, then, as serious YEC scientists, we need an explanation. For the HLA genes, very strong positive selection is the only one!
This, I love.
At first sight, it seems to pose serious theological problems. The new mutant alleles are taking over from the original designs. However, I can think of a way around that. It's actually diversity itself which is being selected for in the immune system.
Is it plausible that the MHCs that we see in mammals could arise in a young earth scenario? Actually, no, but I'm giving it a good try.
With other things, like the Y-chromosome, it's not worth bothering. Not only Noah, but Adam as well gets himself easily falsified.
I'll try to bring some animals and their Ark bottleneck into the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 2:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 518 (808582)
05-11-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by bluegenes
05-11-2017 2:17 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
bg writes:
Faith writes:
I don't see what selection or drift or even number of generations has to do with any of this. I guess I'm just not getting your whole frame of reference.
See if Message 66 makes it any clearer to you. Particularly, concentrate on the point that we would only have mutations (new alleles) on ~1% of our coding genes as individuals. The rest would be identical to the four in Adam and Eve. So, take a random gene and examine it on 100 people, and you'd expect the original 4 alleles + perhaps 1 individual with a new one on average.
But you think we NEED mutations to get new alleles and I don't, so how many there are on a gene doesn't tell me much; all I can say is the fewer the better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 2:17 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2017 3:00 PM Faith has replied
 Message 80 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:11 PM Faith has replied
 Message 85 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 3:14 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 78 of 518 (808583)
05-11-2017 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-11-2017 2:57 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
quote:
But you think we NEED mutations to get new alleles and I don't, so how many there are on a gene doesn't tell me much; all I can say is the fewer the better.
So where do you think new alleles come from if not mutations ?

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 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 2:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:13 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 518 (808584)
05-11-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by bluegenes
05-11-2017 2:44 PM


Re: The YEC model requires ...
Basically, if we all differ from Adam and Eve on just 1% of our coding genes, then take one gene, examine it in 100 people, they should mostly have the original 4 alleles, but we might expect 1 or 2 exceptions.
Meaning that many mutations, right?
But here I am thinking two alleles per gene in Adam and Eve and that many normal functioning alleles in every genome since. Mutations are only an interference, not a source of beneficial alleles.
If only two genes with two alleles each can produce all the skin colors in the genetic square I tried to reproduce a few posts ago, and three genes would increase that variation enormously, there is simply no need for mutations/more alleles, and since mutations are known to be accidents of replication that mostly produce nothing at all new, often produce disease and only very very rarely anything useful or beneficial at all, I reject mutations altogether.
So, if we see something completely different, then, as serious YEC scientists, we need an explanation. For the HLA genes, very strong positive selection is the only one!
All I can say is we don't need it, we don't need to select mutations that would do more harm than good in most cases.
At first sight, it seems to pose serious theological problems. The new mutant alleles are taking over from the original designs.
Well, since I attribute mutations to the death/disease legacy of the Fall what that would mean is that the Fall is more potent in living systems now than the original Creation was. Something to lament as a sign of the increasing genetic deterioration of life.
However, I can think of a way around that. It's actually diversity itself which is being selected for in the immune system.
Not if most or all of those alleles are really neutral mutations that do not change the function of the allele. And you haven't addressed this possibility yet.
Is it plausible that the MHCs that we see in mammals could arise in a young earth scenario? Actually, no, but I'm giving it a good try.
But we wouldn't WANT them to arise if they are bad for the organism, as in the end they must be.
With other things, like the Y-chromosome, it's not worth bothering. Not only Noah, but Adam as well gets himself easily falsified.
By imputing genetic processes to YEC thinking that are not our thinking but a straw man, perhaps so. But if all the diversity we see is easily attributed to genes with two alleles each there is no problem for Adam OR Noah.
I'll try to bring some animals and their Ark bottleneck into the discussion.
I've already answered the bottleneck objection a million times.

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Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 80 of 518 (808585)
05-11-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-11-2017 2:57 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
But you think we NEED mutations to get new alleles and I don't,. . .
You are saying that you can't change DNA sequences hardly at all without getting deleterious results, mutations or not. This means that there can't be any other species, but there are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 2:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:14 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 518 (808586)
05-11-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by PaulK
05-11-2017 3:00 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
We don't need new alleles. All new phenotypes are the product of new combinations of the existing alleles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2017 3:00 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:13 PM Faith has replied
 Message 91 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2017 3:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 82 of 518 (808587)
05-11-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
05-11-2017 2:19 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:
Nonsense.
If the human genome can't be altered hardly at all without causing deleterious effects, and if it can't have any other function than what is found in the human genome, then how can there be any other species but humans in your model?

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 Message 116 by Percy, posted 05-12-2017 7:44 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 83 of 518 (808588)
05-11-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:13 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:
We don't need new alleles. All new phenotypes are the product of new combinations of the existing alleles.
Cats, giraffes, and chimps are all just the result of a different mixture of human alleles?

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 Message 81 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:16 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 518 (808589)
05-11-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Taq
05-11-2017 3:11 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
You haven't grasped the fact that a gene with two alleles in combination with others genes with two alleles is all it takes to produce all the diversity of life we see.

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 Message 80 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:11 PM Taq has replied

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 Message 87 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:17 PM Faith has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 85 of 518 (808590)
05-11-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-11-2017 2:57 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:
But you think we NEED mutations to get new alleles and I don't, so how many there are on a gene doesn't tell me much; all I can say is the fewer the better.
???What PaulK asked above. And as for the fewer the better, didn't you understand that paper on the MHC i showed you?

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 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 2:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:17 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 518 (808592)
05-11-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Taq
05-11-2017 3:13 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
That's so nonsensical I can't understand it well enough to answer it. They have their own genes and two alleles each to bring about all the variations among them, why would they need human ones? Besides, they no doubt all have the same genes we do for many functions. What ARE you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:13 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:18 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 87 of 518 (808593)
05-11-2017 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:14 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:
You haven't grasped the fact that a gene with two alleles in combination with others genes with two alleles is all it takes to produce all the diversity of life we see.
So you are saying that humans could give birth to cats, giraffes, or chimps with just the right combination of human alleles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:17 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 518 (808594)
05-11-2017 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by bluegenes
05-11-2017 3:14 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
I gave an answer to that paper, that's all I know.
ABE: You claim different functions for all those alleles, but haven't shown it. As I suggested they could all be neutral mutations that don't change the function but continue to do what the original allele did.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 3:14 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 3:28 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 518 (808595)
05-11-2017 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Taq
05-11-2017 3:17 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Absolute screaming nonsense. Nothing I've said implies such nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:17 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 90 of 518 (808596)
05-11-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:16 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:
They have their own genes . . .
What makes it "their own genes"?
why would they need human ones?
How can they survive without human genes? You have said that almost any small change in human genes will be deleterious, so according to your model all other species need to have genes nearly identical to human genes or they will die of disease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:21 PM Taq has replied

  
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