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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 591 (80825)
01-26-2004 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-24-2004 11:59 PM


The fact of Orion and Darkseid is not a fact. It is a Belief. Now...what if this belief were real?
1) People who live on New Genesis would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time.
2) The populations of other planets would appear tranquil and quiet. Darkseid would have no need to mess with them.
3) People who practiced and studied boom tube technology would be quite intellectual and bemused by all of the hoopla over Darkseid's coming invasion of Earth. They would consider it all an exercise in doomsaying.
4) Many would call themselves followers of Highfather who were not.
5) The New Gods would be ridiculed and scorned as fiction, yet concepts such as alternative universes and the Tao of Physics would be reverently considered.
6) Mister Miracle would love all of us...buffoon and bartender, professor and psychotic.
7) Darkseid would not let us know about him. He would make us think that we were the ones in control of our future by refusing to bow to anyone... until he invaded, attempting to discover the "anti-life equation."
OBEY THE PROPHET JACK KIRBY.

"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-24-2004 11:59 PM Phat has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 591 (80829)
01-26-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dan Carroll
01-26-2004 9:41 AM


Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
Darkseid is the ruler of Apokolips, the evil opposing world to New Genesis, home of the New Gods. Surrounded by his lackeys, Darkseid uses his vast resources and armies of Parademons and Hunger Dogs to wreak havoc on the heroes of Earth and New Genesis. Darkseid is powerful in his own right, though, possessing of great strength, near invulnerability, and the bizarre Omega Beams, which he uses to destroy his opponents or teleport them to other dimensions. Orion is Darkseid's son and half-brother to Kalibak. Raised on New Genesis in an aborted attempt at peace, Orion turned against his father's evil ways to fight on the side of justice. Aided by a holographic helmet that disguises his true visage, Orion uses his greater than average strength to abet the Justice League in their struggle against Apokolips.
Lemme add another category to MY list:
Some of the free will creations with great senses of humor will distract the seriousness of the reality messages with lighthearted off topic comparisons...suggesting, perhaps, that it is all just a comic book story!
Its OK Dan...I'll have to start preaching on your humor thread!
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-26-2004 9:41 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 33 of 591 (80831)
01-26-2004 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-24-2004 11:59 PM


And, Jesus, in his love and being most mighty and powerful - indeed, more mighty and powerful than Satan - would allow us to be deceived and misled by Satan so that we might suffer eternally in hell without him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-24-2004 11:59 PM Phat has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 591 (80834)
01-26-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Jack
01-26-2004 10:30 AM


If Jesus were real, we COULD ignore Him.
Mr. Jack= What you say is true in that Jesus DOES have the power to overcome the bad guy, yet the choice becomes our responsibility. We can't just assume that since God created us He can take on the responsibility of delivering us from all evil while still allowing us to think and do whatever we desire to think and do. The problem for many people, rightly so, is that they will not accept a human authority structure such as a church over their lives. Well and good.
The issue becomes more complex when our choice is to submit to a Holy Spirit or flow with our own wills.
The question then becomes this:
Are the freewill choices made by humans today leading us toward a better society and destiny or are we orphans without a Daddy cut off from our family and eternal purpose?
ON TOPIC, if Jesus and Satan are real, there is a cosmic battle of supernatural realities. It is true that Jesus has already won the battle, but the people whom He has liberated must profess allegiance or they will be on the other side by default.
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dr Jack, posted 01-26-2004 10:30 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 35 of 591 (80861)
01-26-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
01-26-2004 9:29 AM


Did God create evil or not?
OK Yaro...lets run with this for a minute. Your basic statement is that God knew what would happen, which I agree with..since He knows everything. He created evil, however, is a bit more complex.
How is it more complex? At some point god laid out the ground rules for how morality was gonna function. At some point he said to himself "ok, there is gonna be this stuff calld good, and this other stuff calld evil. And Im gonna make this dude who will betray me and ultimetly lead thousands of my creations to hell. All because I created evil. Hmmmm... sounds like fun!"
It's god we are talking about here. He has unlimited choices. He could have designed the universe an infinite amount of different ways, yet he chose to create good and evil.
System of choices or not, evil is in this world by virture of the god who designed it. And if it's god we are talking about, then the choice was wholy arbitrary to begin with.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 01-26-2004 9:29 AM Phat has replied

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helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5844 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 36 of 591 (80868)
01-26-2004 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
01-26-2004 10:17 AM


Re: Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
quote:
Some of the free will creations with great senses of humor will distract the seriousness of the reality messages with lighthearted off topic comparisons...suggesting, perhaps, that it is all just a comic book story!
Honestly, I feel that Dan's analogy was right on topic and he made an extremely valid point. Suggesting that the two motives / stories are incomparable does not get you out of the dilemma that your initial argument is basically flawed as Dan points points out quite elloquently.
cheers

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 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-26-2004 10:17 AM Phat has not replied

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 591 (80870)
01-26-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by helena
01-26-2004 1:07 PM


Re: Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
Word.
And for the record, Phatboy, it's not a holographic helmet. Orion's motherbox (a portable living computer) hides his true face.

"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 591 (80891)
01-26-2004 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dan Carroll
01-26-2004 1:29 PM


Re: Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
Dan and Alex...Cheers. OK..for the record, how is my initial analogy flawed? I must be dense. Second, my analogy is a "what if" analogy. Explain how flaws can exist? Perhaps in keeping tune with my analogy, Satan is using human intellect to ridicule itself. While I do not see a devil behind every coffee cup, I have personally witnessed proof of a supernatural realm that works for me. Others may dismiss it as insanity on my part. (Maybe I need to pray for better ways to convey the point behind my post,rather than attacking your views or defending my own.)
Yaro--we are back to square one. All right, if you claim that God created evil you are correct. We chose it, however. Why did He make it in the first place? Well to begin with, we cannot fathom His wisdom or His motives. If He were a "bad" God, there would not be much that we could do about it. Most anecdotal evidence points to Him as a God who "so loves the world" and who "cannot lie." There is one reason why the alternate vibe was created. What would a lie even be were it not permitted? Personally, I think that there is a reason why God allowed things to happen the way that they did, and I trust that He is not "burning off our feelers gleefully." To submit to the Holy Spirit does not mean that creative thought is stifled...unless by definition that creativity leads one towards independant omnipotence(which is the lie, by definition.) Note this scrip:
2 Thess 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Correct me if I am wrong, Yaro, but it seems that the point that you are making is why could not have God just skipped a step. Well..if evil did not exist, that opens up an entire other philosophical can of worms. Suffice it to say that one mans evil is another mans survival. The question then becomes why does man need to attempt to survive on his own? Is this the only paradigm that we have? Not if my "what if" concerning Gods character,Jesus Christ, is true. Obviously God did not want a race of robots, nor did He want a bunch of MTV "Rich Girls" living off of Him and not developing character. The question then becomes:
How is character developed?
1) Natural Selection
2) Willful choice
3) Impartation(spiritually) or genetics(naturally)
The whole point of the Fall of Man paradigm is that by our choice, a faulty spiritual impartation sentenced the species to death, and God infused His patch,(Son taking our sentence)which now allows us to once again choose.
Do those who choose wrongly go to Hell? If I were God, I would give them yet another chance, but then again, I did not write the book.

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 Message 37 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-26-2004 1:29 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 39 of 591 (80894)
01-26-2004 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
01-26-2004 4:03 PM


Re: Jesus/Satan...and comic books?
Yaro--we are back to square one. All right, if you claim that God created evil you are correct. We chose it, however. Why did He make it in the first place? Well to begin with, we cannot fathom His wisdom or His motives. If He were a "bad" God, there would not be much that we could do about it. Most anecdotal evidence points to Him as a God who "so loves the world" and who "cannot lie." There is one reason why the alternate vibe was created. What would a lie even be were it not permitted?
So evil and suffering were created to be a contrast to good? God created murder, famin, death, suffering, desise, all to be a contrast to stuff that was nice?
Hmmmm.... this brings me to another point. God is creating the universe, he invented all the stuff he dosn't like. When you think about it god created sin, lies, murder, lust, stealing, etc. etc. etc.
Those are his inventions. He made them up cuz he wanted them to exist. And yet he hates those things...
The only reason you offer as to why he did this is to test us and see what choice we make. Yet, this God already knows the outcome.
I think you agree with all of the above, so we are on the same foot here. Now my question becomes simply: why?
Dosn't it seem arbitray to you? God was board so he made this whole universe, set up all these arbitrary rules, etc. etc. And yet the whole time he knew how it was all gonna work out anyway.
He creates people, brings them into the world, and already knows before they are born weather or not they are going to hell. I suppose in our minds we have a choice, but in a suppernatural sense we really don't. God already knows what we are going to do.
Basically we have a being who arbitreraly created a world, with arbitray rules, whos fate he has already predetermined aons ago. Heck, god himself created the outcome of the universe when he created it, he knew how it was going to work out,....
Wow! im getting dizzy..
Sorry for rambling. But this is all beginning to smack of predestination and fate. I don't see how you can avoid that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-26-2004 4:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 591 (80902)
01-26-2004 5:43 PM


Ok Yaro, I guess now I will justifiably, (atleast to me) repost my original statement. That people can be blind to their own statements. You failed, and have still failed to realize the repurcussions of a world where nothing you did was wrong. Or a world where it was impossible to do anything wrong.
So when I said god could have simply made evil not exist in the first place, It makes perfect sense. He wanted it to exist, for whatever reasen. He made us to succomb to it. And now he punishes us for it.
You make these statements, I guess for not one second thinking about how this would at all be possible. What does evil not existing involve? This question correlates with my original two questions which you have failed to answer. I guess in your mind, your thinking of a fairy tale world, where it's impossible to do certain things, or control your own actions and thoughts. But I seriously think it's impossible, if you want to have a well working system. Perhaps that's why you have avoided those questions. Yes, with God all things are possible. He could have made a Universe where everything you did was right, and evil didn't exist. But if you delve into this statement just a tad further, you will see that it just doesn't work. Like you said, everythings relative. A world with evil, may not be all that bad of a thing. Therefore, God creating evil, may not consist of what you imagine. Maybe it just involves a Universe, where people are bound by their own actions, to either do the right, or the wrong. If the wrong isn't there, they have nothing to choose. If either isn't there, and everything is in our head, then what are we blaming God for?
God created murder, famin, death, suffering, desise, all to be a contrast to stuff that was nice?
Some of the evils in this world, don't have to be here. You are correct. These are some of the direct effects of the rebellion. Disease, famine, suffering, death... The Bible says at Revelation 21: 3,4 , that all these things will be done away with sometime in the near future. However, the evils I thought we were debating over, concern evil ACTIONS of others. These are things that simply have to be available. Otherwise, everything you did would be right. Which we realize can not possibly be the case.
Hmmmm.... this brings me to another point. God is creating the universe, he invented all the stuff he dosn't like. When you think about it god created sin, lies, murder, lust, stealing, etc. etc. etc.
He did create these things, but once again, these are things that have to be available to us in order to have a working world. There's more to this statement than you may think. Let's say God made it so stealing didn't exist. Would this mean that taking something from someone else was mighty fine? Or would this mean that it would be impossible to take something from someone else. Like, as soon as you did, you would disappear? But that wouldn't be good either, because people can repent. So just because they do one thing wrong, doesn't mean it's a lost cause. Or maybe the world you invision, consists of no items to take away from others, or no people to do the taking. Doesn't sound like much of a world to me. Think... before... u make me say these things.
So it was gods choice to invent evil. He could have made it something else, it didn't have to be evil, or have the consequences it does.
So your saying that stabbing someone in the chest with a pocket knife, might not have to be evil after all. It could be a gesture to show how much you love that person. But now, you have not only violated the laws of science, and corrupted a working human system, but you have made a pretty bad carpet and shirt stain. And once again, the real problem with this is that we have a situation where every action is a good one. People would be limited to always making the right choice, thereby, taking away free will and basically turning us into mindless robots. Sounds good to me.
Huh? This makes no sense, bad or good, he already knew what was gonna happen. Wether he chooses to 'pretend' he dosn't or not. It's god we are dealing with here.
If you were to look into the future, and see that something was to happen, would that mean that a series of events would not have led up to that happening? Just because you could look into the future, would that mean that series of events was out of the control of everyone but yourself? The answer is no.
I don't want to see this discussion going on again... I'm sick of stating the same things your not seeming to grasp. Hey, it's even making me look stupid. But seriously, if you would like to explain more in depth as to how a world without murder, lies, stealing... would be possible, be my guest. I would enjoy reading your thoughts as to that matter. But THIS is the core of your argument, and you have yet to prove this in any way. But you'll have to come up with something a little better than lemonade on a picnic table, though I can see where you may have been going with that.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 6:41 PM roboto85 has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 41 of 591 (80909)
01-26-2004 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by roboto85
01-26-2004 5:43 PM


Weee! Fun fun fun!
You make these statements, I guess for not one second thinking about how this would at all be possible. What does evil not existing involve? This question correlates with my original two questions which you have failed to answer. I guess in your mind, your thinking of a fairy tale world, where it's impossible to do certain things, or control your own actions and thoughts.
Maybe you are misunderstanding me. It's not necessarily that you wouldn't have choices, or that everything would be right, it would simply mean that evil and suffering wouldn't exist, period.
Both concepts, good and evil would be non-existent. Sort of like what God supposedly had in the garden. Innocent folk, with no knowledge of good and evil.
You following me?
If god didn't invent the stuff in the first place (the tree), or at least kept it out of reach, there would be no problems. As I understand it, god was quite happy with the way things were going in that garden. I believe most Christian doctrine stresses that Eden was our intended state.
But I seriously think it's impossible, if you want to have a well working system.
Certainly it wasn't. The garden of eden was a perfect example.
Perhaps that's why you have avoided those questions.
I haven't avoided your question. I'm saying your question doesn't fit what I am asking. I was speaking of absolute non-existence of evil. An infinitely powerful God has infinite options, his system could have functioned in a million different ways, yet he chose this good/evil business.
There is no such thing as an impossibility to God. Are you saying god COULDN'T have devised a system that doesn't include the suffering of his creations? If so, this god is not all powerful.
Yes, with God all things are possible. He could have made a Universe where everything you did was right, and evil didn't exist.
Ok, why didn't he?
But if you delve into this statement just a tad further, you will see that it just doesn't work.
But your argument is that it doesn't work in the current system we have. Of course not! Good and Evil are the rules in this system, God made them up. Your reasoning is circular, you are saying:
"God created good and evil to sustain our current system. So he couldn't have not created evil or we wouldn't have our current system."
I'm saying god can create any system. He is God, any option is open to him, and he is bound by no rules himself. Thus he can make a universe were people don't suffer, choices can be made, and evil actions, or evil for that matter are non-existent.
Sure it may be hard for us to imagine such a world, but that doesn't mean god can't do it. Sure he could!
So by implication, we have a god who chose this world, were unspeakable things happen to good people all the time.
Like you said, everythings relative. A world with evil, may not be all that bad of a thing. Therefore, God creating evil, may not consist of what you imagine. Maybe it just involves a Universe, where people are bound by their own actions, to either do the right, or the wrong.
But in a relative universe there is no absolute right and wrong. I think things in this universe are simply bound to their actions, period. It is society that imposes right or wrong values on them.
If the wrong isn't there, they have nothing to choose. If either isn't there, and everything is in our head, then what are we blaming God for?
Hey, I don't really believe in a god anyway, so I don't blame him. I am supposing for the purpose of argument that he does exist. I think Good and Evil are human constructs. I think this universe is held together by moraly neutral relationships between various forces.
Some of the evils in this world, don't have to be here. You are correct. These are some of the direct effects of the rebellion. Disease, famine, suffering, death... The Bible says at Revelation 21: 3,4 , that all these things will be done away with sometime in the near future.
Are you sure these things aren't just processes of nature? After all disease is usually caused by very small organisms. Their just trying to get by. They prey on other living things just as everything else in this world.
Famine, just happens, death happens, etc. These are bad things. They are not necessarily linked to peoples behavior or actions, they just happen. Earthquakes, and AIDS aren't the result of angry gods, they are the results of an indifferent universe and it's interrelated, morally neutral, forces.
However, the evils I thought we were debating over, concern evil ACTIONS of others. These are things that simply have to be available. Otherwise, everything you did would be right. Which we realize can not possibly be the case.
Well, it is my belife that the evil actions of others are subjective. Some folks would consider abortion evil for example, yet others would see it as a necessary human right (please lets not get into an argument about this it is only an example). Some societies don't see drugs as much of a problem, while others, like ours, sees them as evils tantamount to murder. Some view the war our country is involved in as an atrocity, others see it as a righteous act etc.
It is societies that create the idea of evil and good, not gods.
He did create these things, but once again, these are things that have to be available to us in order to have a working world.
They didn't exist in the garden. And again, this rests on the assumption that God, in all his power, is not capable of creating a 'working world' any other way.
There's more to this statement than you may think. Let's say God made it so stealing didn't exist. Would this mean that taking something from someone else was mighty fine?
Why not? Some societies on earth had no concept of property. Some native american tribes shared everything between their members and the idea of ownership was a very loose term. Stealing was virtually non-existent in this situation. In those societies, stealing and property weren't a necessity, so why does ours need to have it?
Or maybe the world you invision, consists of no items to take away from others, or no people to do the taking. Doesn't sound like much of a world to me. Think... before... u make me say these things.
Sounds like a great world to me actually The Indians had a great life until the Europeans came by with all their manifest destiny etc.
So your saying that stabbing someone in the chest with a pocket knife, might not have to be evil after all. It could be a gesture to show how much you love that person. But now, you have not only violated the laws of science, and corrupted a working human system, but you have made a pretty bad carpet and shirt stain.
While your example may be far fetched, there are some situations where murder may indeed be a show of respect and affection. Euthanasia for example.
If a loved one were dying of a horrible disease, and his days were spent in constant agony. I would probably consider it. In some countries it is legal. Even in ours under some extreme consequences like brain death etc.
Consider the ancient Japanese. Ritual suicide and the value of honorable death was a huge part of their culture. In many cases it was a severe disrespect to deny someone a traditional suicide ritual.
Here murder was embraced as an aspect of the culture. It may sound horrible to us, but to them it was the only right way for things to be.
And once again, the real problem with this is that we have a situation where every action is a good one.
How about we step in to reality, and admit that there is no such thing as good or bad actions. All actions are measured by the standard of the society which performs them.
People would be limited to always making the right choice, thereby, taking away free will and basically turning us into mindless robots. Sounds good to me.
Nope, not mindless robots. Just different.
Again, if there is a god, he could blow through your last statement snap his fingers and make it work. To say that couldn't make it any other way would be imposing limits on his power.
If you were to look into the future, and see that something was to happen, would that mean that a series of events would not have led up to that happening? Just because you could look into the future, would that mean that series of events was out of the control of everyone but yourself? The answer is no.
God made the universe. He was the main catalyst for all events. Not only that, but he was fully aware of all the repercussions, results, and final outcomes of what he created, so the answer is YES, he must have been in full control. He is god, if he exists, he knew how the dominoes were gonna fall, after all, he laid them out.
He knew that Joe Shmo who lived in 1956 was gonna die of a heart attack and go to hell, eons ago before earth even existed. He knew me and you were gonna have this debate way back in the dawn of time.
Before he said let there be light, he already knew Adam was gonna eat the apple, and that billions would end up in a lake of fire because he decided to lay out some arbitrary rules for undisclosed reasons. So yes he is responsible for it all.
But seriously, if you would like to explain more in depth as to how a world without murder, lies, stealing... would be possible, be my guest.
Don't ask me robo, ask god. He can do anything. Are you saying he couldn't make a world like that? Are you saying god is bound by rules outside of his control?
I would enjoy reading your thoughts as to that matter. But THIS is the core of your argument, and you have yet to prove this in any way.
My argument is already proven. It is based on the assumption that god is all powerful.
If you want proof that Good and Evil are human inventions imposed on the world by society, see my examples of variant moralities above.
Now could you explain how god would find such an ideal world impossible to create?
Could you explain how the being that set the first domino in motion, with a full understanding of every little detail that was about to transpire, doesn't contradict free will, thereby contradicting the perceived choice between good and evil?
Seems to me your gonna have an awful hard time proving that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 5:43 PM roboto85 has replied

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 Message 42 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 9:57 PM Yaro has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 591 (80933)
01-26-2004 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Yaro
01-26-2004 6:41 PM


Re: Weee! Fun fun fun!
My argument is already proven. It is based on the assumption that god is all powerful.
Ok, maybe we need to deal with this one statement to end this. Because, as it stands, this is the only basis for your argument. You say things would be better if all we could do was good, and it was impossible to do anything wrong. And I'll go even further with that, and say (as you have stated), that wrong or evil even goodness, doesn't even exist. And the funny thing is, you can't even begin to fathom what is involved in that. You are simply resting it all on God's shoulders. I examined how a system such as that, wouldn't work in the first place. It would fall to pieces. I'm sure God examined that as well. That's why, we live under the current system we do. And it works just fine. Maybe I have to go all the way back to my beginning post to make you understand something you must have missed. God did not intend for evil to get out of hand. Certain things (if you would like to read again, in first post) caused it to. So, as you stated in your first post, 'oh there's so much evil, God must like that stuff.' That means squat. Let's say things had gone the way intended, and evil would have remained at a bare minimum or even next to none. You wouldn't have anything to complain about. But evidently, as I have stated oh so many times in quite detail, there are logical reasons why everything you do is not good. End of story.
I'm sorta venturing from my original argument with this one, but besides, you already have stated that you believe everything is in our mind, invented by us. We have decided what's right and what's wrong. So, according to you, even if you thought there was a God, He didn't create evil anyway. We only brought it upon ourselves. So that, in itself, clears away that God is to blame. And it only re-emphasizes one of my original statements, that rebellion from God, can only lead to either evils we create, or evils God created. And don't give that jibberish once again about how just because God may have been able to see into the future, that we have no control of our actions.
He was the main catalyst for all events. Not only that, but he was fully aware of all the repercussions, results, and final outcomes of what he created, so the answer is YES, he must have been in full control. He is god, if he exists, he knew how the dominoes were gonna fall, after all, he laid them out.
Gah, your not seeming to grasp something so simple. First of all, we don't even know that God USED his ability to see into the future. Would an all powerful God not be able to control whether or not he wanted to see what would happen? Secondly, even if he DID look ahead and see that it was going to happen, that does not mean the blames on Him, or that our actions don't determine our future. You know, even if He did look ahead, He could have shook his head in sorrow to see the events that were going to take place (Satan rebelling, Adam eating the Apple etc.). But we also know God is bound by His own laws. For example, God cannot lie, and God is love. Another one of God's laws is that His creations actions, are going to determine their future. And this would apply to Satan as well. So whether or NOT he looked ahead and saw what was going to happen, you are jumping to conclusions that you have no right to jump to by stating that things went the way God wanted them to go, and that we have no control of our future
PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT BIT. I'm not going to have you say this again...
So yes he is responsible for it all.
Wrong...
Now could you explain how god would find such an ideal world impossible to create?
I already have, throught the sum culmination of my posts. I didn't say that it would be impossible. In fact, I stated that it WAS possible. I only stated that not only according to my puny reasoning, not only according to the system we have around us, not only according to all the scientists we have, but also according to God's reasoning, that the way we have of running things, is deviced perfectly, works perfectly, and is only out of whack because of the events in time, which are described in the Bible.
Could you explain how the being that set the first domino in motion, with a full understanding of every little detail that was about to transpire, doesn't contradict free will, thereby contradicting the perceived choice between good and evil?
Yeah, uh, see 2 paragraphs up.
Not only have I answered your two questions, it really wasn't hard as you stated.
You however, have yet to answer my questions other than...
With God all things are possible
And I will 100 percent agree with that.
Therefore, if that's your statement, you have to be ready to admit that God intentionally chose this system, because it was possible, and it already is the best system. Things got way out of hand, so thats one reason your even questioning God's system. If evil wasn't so prevalent in the world today, you'd be saying, "Wow, I couldn't have done it any better myself. Everyone follows God's laws, and evil isn't even a problem. The world is in perfect balance, I have the right to make my own decisions, and the Hydrochloric Acid may be there, if for whatever evil reasons I choose to do something evil. But I'm the happiest I could possibly be, I'm sticking with the Lemonade.
The End-
Meaning, I am not continuing this debate with you anymore, it over finuto, done with. We've both gotten to say our parts. Write more if you please, but I'm through. PEOPLES THOUGHTS PLEASE!!! You can disagree with me, that's fine.
EDIT: I just had to add this in here somewhere
Are you sure these things aren't just processes of nature? After all disease is usually caused by very small organisms. Their just trying to get by. They prey on other living things just as everything else in this world. Famine, just happens, death happens, etc. These are bad things.
Are you saying it's not in the power of an all powerful God to do away with these things. As I stated in the same statement you replied to
handsomeandsmartfellaroboto85 writes:
Some of the evils in this world, don't have to be here. You are correct. These are some of the direct effects of the rebellion. Disease, famine, suffering, death... The Bible says at Revelation 21: 3,4 , that all these things will be done away with sometime in the near future.
Yes these are bad things, and there are scientific reasons why these things exist. But what's that have to do with anything?
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 6:41 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 10:01 PM roboto85 has not replied
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 01-26-2004 11:01 PM roboto85 has replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 591 (80934)
01-26-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by roboto85
01-26-2004 9:57 PM


Re: Weee! Fun fun fun!
That was fun...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 9:57 PM roboto85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-26-2004 10:42 PM roboto85 has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 591 (80943)
01-26-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by roboto85
01-26-2004 10:01 PM


Lost
Yaro, roboto85 simply can't follow your reasoning and is getting frustrated.
Good posts Yaro: thanks for the amusement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 10:01 PM roboto85 has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 591 (80950)
01-26-2004 11:00 PM


How do you know what he's thinking? I couldn't follow Yaro with everything he said, in fact, with a crap load of it, and am not frustrated. The only thing that may have made me frustrated is having to state the same things over and over again, without Yaro seeming to grasp it. I actually gave reasoning as to why, all he said was God is all powerful. And then I went with that as well. Perhaps it's the differing of opinions, but I don't see how anything I say can't be enough for him. He may very well feel the same for me.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 01-27-2004 12:21 AM roboto85 has not replied
 Message 48 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-27-2004 1:09 AM roboto85 has replied

  
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