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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 16 of 591 (80753)
01-25-2004 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by roboto85
01-25-2004 11:25 PM


Re: Satan
Thank you Yaro, for confirming my argument. I was simply explaining why such a thing would be necessary, or even to our benefit. For example, knowing we took the right course, when there was a potential wrong course.
HAHAHAHAH! Why set out a wrong cource in the first place?
God could have saved some time, if he made everything good.
I also explained how although God created potential evil, it wasn't his intentions for evil to be chosen.
Huh? Why create it in the first place?
Would you set out a picknick table, invite your whole family, set out a pitcher of Lemonade and a pitcher of Hydracloric Acid, then chastise the person who drank the acid by saying:
"I didn't mean for you to drink it! I just put it there to be an oposit to lemonade. Duh"
WTF?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by roboto85, posted 01-25-2004 11:25 PM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by roboto85, posted 01-25-2004 11:45 PM Yaro has replied
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-26-2004 12:29 AM Yaro has replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 591 (80754)
01-25-2004 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Yaro
01-25-2004 11:32 PM


Re: Satan
Your being extremely stupid, how could you not grasp something so simple? I already explained it earlier in my previous post, either it went past your brain for some reason, or it is too much for you to handle. I am not going through it again just so you can start all over like you have just done. I'll let any reader who can think for a second, decide on this one. And BTW, I can tell from your lemonade analogy what stream of thought you are on. I hope you can as well.
Sorry for the light insults, but I really wish they weren't necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:32 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:52 PM roboto85 has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 18 of 591 (80756)
01-25-2004 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by roboto85
01-25-2004 11:45 PM


Re: Satan
Robot, Sorry I didn't mean to set the tone to something mean. I was really being rather light hearted about the whole thing, after all ya started it by calling me blind
In any case, stay tuned... I'll give you a point by point Serious reply. Then we can progress in our discussion.. Give me.. oh, say 10 15 minutes from the time of this post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by roboto85, posted 01-25-2004 11:45 PM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by roboto85, posted 01-25-2004 11:57 PM Yaro has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 591 (80759)
01-25-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Yaro
01-25-2004 11:52 PM


Re: Satan
Yes, I suppose you are right, I did call you blind. It really was unnessecary since I wasn't aware why you had that viewpoint.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:52 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 20 of 591 (80763)
01-26-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by roboto85
01-25-2004 10:42 PM


Re: Satan
I now realize that people can be quite blind to their own statements. In the world (Universe I guess you could say) in which we live, people are very aware of the fact of opposites. For example, the opposite of up is down, the opposite of go is stop, the opposite of good is bad, the opposite of hot is cold (to some degree , the opposite of love is hate, the opposite of wet is dry, the opposite of envy is contentment ... the list goes on.
Well, I disagree entirely. The 'fact' of 'opesits' is not a fact at all. An opesit is a human construct, it is not a physical reality. Like all things in the world there is a fine gradation.
For example, up and down. Up and down are relative to where you are. If you were in space, up and down don't really exist. Those are relative coordinates based on two points. There isn't really one up in Space. The idea of them being absolute oposits, is a purely human one.
Likewise we can see this in good and evil. Good and evil are not absolute opsits. There are many fine gradations of goods and evils. and at times a choice often considered evil may in fact be good. Lying to someone to save a friend, or killing someone who would kill your children etc.
In fact, good and evil are like up and down. They are human ideas based on relative positions or situations. In the end oposits don't exist but in the human mind.
It are these things, that keep the world in a balance you could say.
How do these things? (What things? Oposits?) Keep the world in balance?
If anything, it seems that relationships between relative forces keep the world spinning round and doing it's thing.
What would our world be like if it was impossible to not like something or someone. Or what if EVERYTHING you did was good, even if it was bad.
How could you do something bad if everything you did was good? this dosn't make sense. Don't mean to be dense, but I don't understand it.
It really is a paradox in itself.
Yes quite!
When you think about it, its a complex system of running things, one that is designed perfectly. The tiniest switch around, and who knows. The fabric of society, perhaps even the fabric of the Universe would fall apart.
Im losing you here. How do oposits keep society and the universe working? Heck, how does good and evil do it?
I can see a case for 'Oposit' forces affecting the universe, but how the heck does good and evil do it? Why does society need evil?
So yes, these things are all available to us. But humans have made the right decisions, as of yet, as to shunning the wrong for the most part, and going with the good.
Can you define what is wrong and what is good?
When they've done otherwise, the consequences were only disastrious.
Example, please, at this point I am not sure what you are talking about at all. Choosing evil over good? How does this apply to the question "Why did god make evil." So we could have the ability to wreak disaster?
God wants us to make the right decisions. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to make the wrong decisions. As I stated before, it would be a paradox if it was impossible to do something wrong.
Why is it a paradox? God can do whatever he wants. He makes the universe, he can set the rules. God can make it NOT a paradox
Heck, how about god just give us a definition of good and evil in the first place. What is absolutely good, and what is absolutely evil?
So yes, I suppose God created the possibility to do wrong. But He didn't want people to accept that, as it can only lead to our detriment.
I know you don't like it, but what about that Lemonade anology. If you are god, why on earth would you make WRONG in the first place?
You have yet to give a deffinition of Right and Wrong, or more importantly, show how it is necissary. Why can earth not be utopia?
The Bible does state though, that we were made as relatively perfect humans. Therefore, doing the right thing wouldn't be a challenge as long as we wanted to.
So god made us, then put down all the hurdles and bad stuff to see if we screw up? Lemonade analogy. I don't get it?
But because of the balance required, that didn't mean it would be impossible.
You have not shown a verse that says this balance is required, nor have you made a single statement that proves that we need Evil. Can you show why we NEED EVIL?
Probably one of the most powerful agents, envy, cause Satan to rebel against God. But it only took one spirit to open the box that should have remained forever enclosed. And by that I mean 2 things. 1) Him choosing the wrong course caused Adam to sin, therefore taking away relative perfection and making it much much easier to take the wrong course. 2) Satan would now be able to influence people even MORE into taking the wrong course.
Right. God made Satan knowing he was bad, gonna rebel, tempt adam, bring evil into the world, have people thrown in hell etc. He knew all this crap aeons ago. So why he go thrugh with it? Couldn't he have saved us all a heap of truble by not makeing the bad stuff to begin with.
So I know I've sorta been rambling, and haven't put this together very well, but here's a sum up. Evil is a POSSIBILITY, just one of the many things that keep the world balanced.
A point you have faild to prove. You state yourself that evil has only served to throw society out of balance. What's the use of evil? Why does the world neceistate an oposit?
A Mobeius Strip has one side, why cant the good/evil coin eh?
Yes, God did create this Possibility,
No, he created evil. Period. he invented it, and let it loose. He knew satan was coming, and what he was gonna do, he let it happen. He created evil.
but the actions of one, caused the whole thing to get way out of control.
Exactly. he created evil...
And in closing, God wants us to serve him out of our own desires and will. If it was only possible to do right, we wouldn't be able to show anything.
So basically God is gambling with us. He set the Acid and lemonade on the table, and is placing bets on who drinks the acid. Nice.
Everything would be out of whack... Man this topic is sorta confusing, but I hope your catching my drift. The way it is, is just the right way. If it were any other way, I'd have more reason not to believe in a God. Why am I even having to say this?
Ya, what are you saying? No offence, Im really curious how you arive at your belife, that Evil is a necissary component to the universe.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by roboto85, posted 01-25-2004 10:42 PM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 1:24 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 24 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 1:40 AM Yaro has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 591 (80764)
01-26-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Yaro
01-25-2004 11:32 PM


What if Jesus/Satan were a reality? why evil?
I will keep it light, Yaro. You said:
Huh? Why create it in the first place? Would you set out a picnic table, invite your whole family, set out a pitcher of Lemonade and a pitcher of Hydracloric Acid, then chastise the person who drank the acid by saying:"I didn't mean for you to drink it! I just put it there to be an opposite to lemonade."
God knew what humans would do. It is not as if He slapped His Almighty Forehead and exclaimed, "Oh No! They ate the forbidden fruit! Now What am I gonna do?" If you had ONLY lenonaide at your stand, folks just would not have a choice. The issue is the choice.
Life and Death. Blessing and Cursing. In our big game of cosmic jeopardy, how many rational players would say "Alex, I'll take Death and Cursing for $40!" Eve did not perceive the choice as "good choice/bad choice." She only saw something else besides what she was told to do. Anyway....
To get back on Topic, Lets assume that Jesus...as Gods character and Satan...numero uno fallen angel...are real. Based on how the Bible and Orthodox Christianity interprets human nature, how would people respond?
This also assumes that humans are incapable of attaining perfection, although the concept is somewhat defineable.
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Yaro, posted 01-25-2004 11:32 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 22 of 591 (80767)
01-26-2004 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
01-26-2004 12:29 AM


Re: What if Jesus/Satan were a reality? why evil?
God knew what humans would do. It is not as if He slapped His Almighty Forehead and exclaimed, "Oh No! They ate the forbidden fruit! Now What am I gonna do?" If you had ONLY lenonaide at your stand, folks just would not have a choice. The issue is the choice.
I see the issue as wasting time. I mean, he knew what was gonna happen, he knew how it was all gonna play out. Why on earth did he bother?
It was a setup, eve had no choice. It was all part of gods plan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-26-2004 12:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 591 (80777)
01-26-2004 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Yaro
01-26-2004 12:21 AM


Re: Satan
Ok this is one of those discussions. I'm sorta agreeing with you, your sorta agreeing with me. However, a few things need to be cleared up.
At the end of my initial post, I only reaffirmed your initial statement. So really, we're arguing about something we both agree upon. The only difference is I'm stating why God would create a potential evil. We both agree that there is evil. You however seem to think that it serves no purpose.
You have not shown a verse that says this balance is required, nor have you made a single statement that proves that we need Evil. Can you show why we NEED EVIL?
Hmm, before I go any further with this, I don't even know if you even think evil exists. Yes, everything is relative to the system that God set in place. And their are certain things, that I believe God made evil, and you might believe we have just come to think they're evil. And yes, there are those fine points like "what if your killing someone to save someone else's life?" But you go as far as to say everything only exists in the human mind. So answer these 2 questions for me and it just might end this circular debate, 1) "Is killing someone for no reason evil?" 2) "If God DIDN'T create evil does that mean it would be impossible to pick up a gun, and shoot someone with it, killing them?" Or if there was no evil, would that just mean people wouldn't have any thoughts or intentions to do such a thing? But as I stated earlier, that's the way most of us operate. That's also the way God intended us to operate. But how could such a thing be impossible? This is part of the paradox I am referring to.
How could you do something bad if everything you did was good? this dosn't make sense. Don't mean to be dense, but I don't understand it.
roboto85 writes:
What would our world be like if it was impossible to not like something or someone. Or what if EVERYTHING you did was good, even if it was bad.
Ok, so your proving my point? You agreed that it is a paradox.
No, he created evil. Period. he invented it, and let it loose. He knew satan was coming, and what he was gonna do, he let it happen. He created evil.
Well, since we've established that it would be a parodox if evil didn't exist, then there is reason to create evil. But I have a gripe with your second statement. God set out the perfect system. Satan broke that perfect system. (Meaning he didn't follow it) God allowed Satan do this because, if anything, it only proves that disobediance to God can only cause heartache. However, it is not for us to decide whether or not He should have allowed Satan to do this. Satan was the one who did it, not God. We all may have our own opinions about God. We're created in his image, perhaps he feels that people should make their own mistakes. Isn't that something society as a whole accepts as the best way of learning something?
I think we both agree that there has to be a possibility to do wrong or evil. And if you dont, please refer to my 2 questions.
Couldn't he have saved us all a heap of truble by not makeing the bad stuff to begin with.
Ok... you really need to explain yourself here.
Im losing you here. How do oposits keep society and the universe working? Why does society need evil?
Ok, after much brain tangling, I think I've come to a conclusion. Society doesn't NEED evil. Any fool could answer that one. Things would be much better if evil wasn't around. But, I will state once again, the POSSIBILITIY to do evil must be there. This is the foundation I'm working off of. If you'd like to explain how this is not necessary, please do so.
What's the use of evil? Why does the world neceistate an oposit?
I really dont know. I don't think you know either. It's just the way things work. And I don't think either of us could think of a better way, without having a Universe that couldn't run properly, or even exist for that matter. I guess your questioning science, and I still don't know why (it is a paradox after all). And I'm not questioning God, because after all, the way we have it, it isn't a paradox. The Universe hasn't exploded lately or anything, has it?
Ya, what are you saying? No offence, Im really curious how you arive at your belife, that Evil is a necissary component to the universe.
Or better yet, how do you arrive at the belief that evil (or possibility to do evil) is not necessary.
Care to dance some more? Not that I don't think you can reply, but I really think we're both digging ourselves into a hole here. Round and round we go. I still agree with me, I win. I still don't know what the heck your talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:21 AM Yaro has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 591 (80780)
01-26-2004 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Yaro
01-26-2004 12:21 AM


Lemonade Analogy
God puts some lemonade (good) and whatever deadly stuff u said (bad) on a picnic table. You said it wasn't necessary for God to put the other deadly stuff on the picnic table. So everybody is all happy drinking from the lemonade, duh duh DAH. 1) Until one day, somebody wants to have some of the other stuff. They reach to grab it, but it's not there. Ahh, but they still had the thought to have it. That's evil in itself. So now its impossible to think anything but good things. 2) Now, lets say they have no intentions to drink it because its bad, but they can't have any intentions to drink it at all, because it's not even there.
In the first case, we have people that can't control their thoughts. Robots in other words. In the second case, we have people who have basically destroyed the entire Universe. Ahh, it truly is a perfect system. Thanks for the lemonade analogy, it really came in handy.
Ok, well the second one sorta sucks and doesn't work, but that's because we're dealing with lemonade here and not reality. LOL>>>>>
Maybe the second one doesn't suck. But they both fit together to explain how you either have mindless robots, or paradoxes left and right. Ok once again, I dont know how much the paradox thing applies here, because this analogy would have to get much more detailed in order for that to come into play. Like mixing spoons of death and such.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:21 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 1:47 AM roboto85 has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 25 of 591 (80783)
01-26-2004 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by roboto85
01-26-2004 1:40 AM


Ya but that brings us back to the wole thing of why is bad necissary?
If it's just choice, why does the other choice have to be bad? That seems like an arbitrary decision if you ask me. After all, couldent god make it a choice between good and okay?
Why does god need this choice in the first place? He knows how it's gonna work out. He knew what satan was gonna do etc. There really wasn't a choice. In fact it was all part of gods 'plan'. How is this choice?
EDIT:
Also, God INVENTED Bad. Bad dosn't have to exist. God decided to invent Bad, as well as the horibble results of it. As well as the punishments for it. He didn't have to make things that way.
God could have simply made it so that BAD didn't exist. Thus, the choice would be unecisary, bad dosn't exist.
Its like saying a choice between good and foozle, foozle dosn't exist. Get it?
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 1:40 AM roboto85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 1:56 AM Yaro has replied
 Message 27 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 2:06 AM Yaro has replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 591 (80784)
01-26-2004 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Yaro
01-26-2004 1:47 AM


God could have simply made it so that BAD didn't exist. Thus, the choice would be unecisary, bad dosn't exist.
Its like saying a choice between good and foozle, foozle dosn't exist. Get it?
No, I don't get it. And I don't think you get it either. And plus, I really don't think "simply" is involved here. Let's go with your foozle thing for a second. Ahh lets not. It makes no sense. Answer my questions! LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 1:47 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:49 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
roboto85
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 591 (80790)
01-26-2004 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Yaro
01-26-2004 1:47 AM


Why does god need this choice in the first place? He knows how it's gonna work out. He knew what satan was gonna do etc. There really wasn't a choice. In fact it was all part of gods 'plan'. How is this choice?
How is that part of Gods plan... So then you believe in fate? I believe in a God who lets us make our own choices, whether or not he knows how its going to work out. He may or may not choose to look into the future and see how things are going to go. For all we know, He may not. But even if He did, it would only mean we had no choices if He made sure nothing bad happened.
[This message has been edited by roboto85, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 1:47 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:45 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 28 of 591 (80794)
01-26-2004 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by roboto85
01-26-2004 2:06 AM


How is that part of Gods plan...
Maybe your church teaches diffrent. It was my undertanding that the fall was part of gods plan.
So then you believe in fate? I believe in a God who lets us make our own choices, whether or not he knows how its going to work out.
How is your belife any different than fate. You may have a choice, but the choice you make and the outcome of it are already pre-known. Thus, you never really did have a choice, mearly an illusion of it.
Like a movie for example, you seen the thing a hundred times. Now, in the characters world, they have tons of choices, but in reality they really don't. You already know whats gonna happen to them, and how it all works out.
He may or may not choose to look into the future and see how things are going to go. For all we know, He may not. But even if He did, it would only mean we had no choices if He made sure nothing bad happened.
Huh? This makes no sense, bad or good, he already knew what was gonna happen. Wether he chooses to 'pretend' he dosn't or not. It's god we are dealing with here.
He knew from the get go how this was all gonna turn out. There is no choice from gods perspective.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 2:06 AM roboto85 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 29 of 591 (80795)
01-26-2004 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by roboto85
01-26-2004 1:56 AM


No, I don't get it. And I don't think you get it either. And plus, I really don't think "simply" is involved here. Let's go with your foozle thing for a second. Ahh lets not. It makes no sense. Answer my questions! LOL
It makes sense.
God can make the universe anyway he wants right? He sets the rules, he makes up how it works.
Evil exists only by virtue of god. He invented the stuff, after all he is god.
So it was gods choice to invent evil. He could have made it something else, it didn't have to be evil, or have the consequences it does.
So when I said god could have simply made evil not exist in the first place, It makes perfect sense. He wanted it to exist, for whatever reasen. He made us to succomb to it. And now he punishes us for it.
He could have made it anyway he wanted, instead he chose to play spiritual pinball with us humans. Meh... seems kinda sadistic to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by roboto85, posted 01-26-2004 1:56 AM roboto85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 01-26-2004 9:29 AM Yaro has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 591 (80824)
01-26-2004 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Yaro
01-26-2004 2:49 AM


Good and Foozle foshizzle-in hell we sizzle
OK Yaro...lets run with this for a minute. Your basic statement is that God knew what would happen, which I agree with..since He knows everything. He created evil, however, is a bit more complex. He only created a system of choices. Daddy says to Billy, Billy, you stay in the house. Outside the house is the tree of the knowledge of pleasure and pain. If you go near it, you gonna hurt. If Billy always stays inside, he becomes a little wimp who has no mind of his own, so we imagine. Daddy also knows that Billy is gonna not listen to him one day. Why? Because pain did not listen, and fell from grace. pain by definition is the very action of not listening to Daddy.====> Check out the spirit vibes in Revelation:
Rev 1:4-6=Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father-to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Here is God who always was, is right now as we speak, and always will be. Notice how He frees us up from OUR sins by HIS blood.
Kinda like since Billy chose to go outside and mess with the tree of pleasure and pain, Billy and all his offspring deal with pain on a daily basis. It is a hopeless life until supernaturally someone else takes the pain and gives Billy back to his Daddy. Daddy wanted Billy to listen to him. It was Billys choice to not listen. Daddy could not have made Billy listen without making Billy a robot. ====> OK back to Revelation:
Rev 17:8=The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Here we have a critter who once was(note:it does not say that this critter always was) now is not a reality in this moment, yet exists for those who are not on Daddys guest list. Hmmmm..another choice, perhaps? First of all, the question is not so much "why did God create evil aka the Critter," but the question became humanities question when Eve disobeyed Daddy and became aware of two reality vibes...Daddy and the Critter. Jesus then came and took the bullet, thus making the Critter of no effect UNLESS our free will chooses not to listen to Daddy. Then...we are not on the guest list. Now...is this Daddys fault or is this our fault? See,Yaro...you say that god made us sucumb to evil.
succumb \se-kem\ vb 1 : to yield to superior strength or force or overpowering appeal or desire 2 : die syn submit, capitulate, relent, defer
The question is this: Was Eve unable to resist or did she choose? If she was unable to resist, we are predestined robots. If she chose, we then needed another choice to undo the first choice. Jesus is the second choice. Now...if we do not choose Daddy this time, is the Beast our only other choice, or like the lie says, will we be as gods ourselves...imagining a great universe and many possibilities of self achievemnt?
(
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 2:49 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Yaro, posted 01-26-2004 12:24 PM Phat has replied
 Message 110 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 02-28-2004 1:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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