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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 256 of 1352 (805502)
04-18-2017 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:18 PM


Re: On "opinions"
No it isn't. The viewer through the telescope becomes a direct witness.
The point is that by looking through the telescope, we can directly witness the fact that radioactive decay is at the same rate as today, that stars operate using the same processes that we do today.
By contrast there is zero evidence that decay rates were different in the past.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 257 of 1352 (805503)
04-18-2017 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:18 PM


Re: On "opinions"
No it isn't. The viewer through the telescope becomes a direct witness.
He becomes a direct witness of what he sees when he looks at the eyepiece of the telescope (just as the geologist is a direct witness of what he sees when he looks at the readout of the dating machine).
But to say that that somehow makes the astronomer an eyewitness of the stars would, even at best, be assuming the very thing you're being challenged to prove --- that looking at the lens of the telescope half an inch in front of your eye gives you an accurate picture of (for example) the Andromeda Galaxy, 14,700,000,000,000,000,000 miles away, when you have never been there to verify that the telescope really does accurately represent things that far away. To believe that it does must necessarily "rely on assumptions, interpretations, extrapolations", or to put it another way it's a perfectly normal application of the scientific method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 1:17 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 258 of 1352 (805504)
04-19-2017 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Adminnemooseus
04-18-2017 11:41 PM


Re: "Bible Study" topic, not a science topic
So, science is off-topic here.
OK, I shall devote the rest of my posts on this thread to my numerological proof that David Jay Jordan is the Antichrist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-18-2017 11:41 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 12:06 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 1352 (805505)
04-19-2017 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 12:02 AM


Re: "Bible Study" topic, not a science topic
Science is off topic, but non scientific extrapolations only loosely tied to what is actual described in the Bible are on topic and cannot be rebutted by facts? How odd.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 12:02 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2017 12:24 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 260 of 1352 (805506)
04-19-2017 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by NoNukes
04-19-2017 12:06 AM


Re: "Bible Study" topic, not a science topic
cience is off topic, but non scientific extrapolations only loosely tied to what is actual described in the Bible are on topic and cannot be rebutted by facts? How odd.
I guess the thing to do is to request Biblical support for those extrapolations. A "cite chapter and verse" thing?
Hey, I'm not claiming that anything to do with "The Flood" really makes worldly sense.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 12:06 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 261 of 1352 (805507)
04-19-2017 1:07 AM


Summary
As the originator of this thread, I recommend summary mode.
My basic summary: The original challenge was for Davidjay to provide his numerology showing the "exact" date for the flood that never happened, and it evolved from there into creationists trying (unsuccessfully) to provide evidence for a global flood while denying or ignoring evidence to the contrary. Looks like the only "evidence" for a global flood during historic times is in the bible, and that has been soundly refuted by real-world evidence. As bible-believers can never be convinced by real-world evidence, we are at an impasse--right back where we started.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 1352 (805508)
04-19-2017 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:56 PM


Re: On "opinions"
He becomes a direct witness of what he sees when he looks at the eyepiece of the telescope (just as the geologist is a direct witness of what he sees when he looks at the readout of the dating machine). But to say that that somehow makes the astronomer an eyewitness of the stars would, even at best, be assuming the very thing you're being challenged to prove --- that looking at the lens of the telescope half an inch in front of your eye gives you an accurate picture of (for example) the Andromeda Galaxy, 14,700,000,000,000,000,000 miles away, when you have never been there to verify that the telescope really does accurately represent things that far away.
We don't have to assume that the witness is 100% accurate or that adjustments won't have to be made as observations accumulate. But the telescope gives us a direct witness in a way that dating methods don't. You act as if those don't have all kinds of error problems for one thing. The results always have to be interpreted, in fact often corrected by other observations. Direct witness isn't perfect but it doesn't have those problems.
It ought to be unarguable that a written document describing events in the past, that has lots of agreement from account to account, gives clues to how to date the events, mentions historical real-world kings and leaders that can be tracked extrabiblically, and so on, is a lot better witness than an error-prone atomic decay system.
Being able to look at the stars should give a lot more reliable information than a theory about what the stars look like and how far away they are based on blind measurements.
Many people can look through the telescope and agree about the observed facts too. .All you have for the past on earth is speculation, or theory, and anybody who isn't up on the theory and contemplates the same information is very likely not to agree with all the others in the same situation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 1:34 AM Faith has replied
 Message 295 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 3:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 263 of 1352 (805509)
04-19-2017 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
04-19-2017 1:17 AM


Re: On "opinions"
But the telescope gives us a direct witness in a way that dating methods don't.
Again this assumes the thing to be proved.
It ought to be unarguable that a written document describing events in the past, that has lots of agreement from account to account, gives clues to how to date the events, mentions historical real-world kings and leaders that can be tracked extrabiblically, and so on, is a lot better witness than an error-prone atomic decay system.
No it should not. I could write such a document myself. I could put in lots of real kings and battles and dates, and also a bit about how the world was vomited up 10000 years ago by a mutant space goat. And the true bits wouldn't verify the made-up bit.
Or I could simply compile together everything that some nation other than the Jews (let's say the ancient Greeks) wrote about their history and the history of the world. I could bind all that stuff together into one book and call it the Biblos. And none of the verifiable bits that turned out to be good history would add one shred of confirmation to the myth of Prometheus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 1:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 5:50 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 296 by Astrophile, posted 04-19-2017 5:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 264 of 1352 (805522)
04-19-2017 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Coyote
04-19-2017 1:07 AM


Re: Summary
Not according to Message 1
Message 1 of 263 (804229)
06-04-2017 9:07 AM
Davidjay writes:
Coyote, if you want the true history of the Flood, just start a new thread, on it and I shall answer. You can post your billions and trillions of years, and I can post my immensely smaller exact numbers.
Not a problem, just go to Proposed New Topics....
As requested, here is a proposed new topic in which Davidjay can enlighten us on the TRVE history of the Flood.
I'd like to suggest the Humor forum, but probably shouldn't...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Coyote, posted 04-19-2017 1:07 AM Coyote has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 265 of 1352 (805523)
04-19-2017 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:30 AM


Re:Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
You don't think the river at the bottom of it is a clue? Nah, course you don't.
I think they are cause and effect. The flood carved the Grand Canyon which then provided the route of least resistance for the river that formed later.
You don't think the river at the bottom of it is a clue? Nah, course you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:30 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 3:56 AM CRR has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 266 of 1352 (805524)
04-19-2017 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by CRR
04-19-2017 3:50 AM


Re: Re:Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
I think they are cause and effect. The flood carved the Grand Canyon which then provided the route of least resistance for the river that formed later.
So, how much of the course of the Colorado River do you think was carved out by the Flood? Just the Grand Canyon?
You don't think the river at the bottom of it is a clue?
It's a huge clue. Here we have something that looks like it was carved out by a river, and oh look, there's a river at the bottom of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by CRR, posted 04-19-2017 3:50 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 5:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 408 by CRR, posted 04-22-2017 2:19 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 1352 (805528)
04-19-2017 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 1:34 AM


Re: On "opinions"
Your fake might get a few nuts to follow it, but anybody who follows the Bible would know it was a fake. The Bible is authentic history and that's why it is a good witness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 1:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 9:58 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 279 by jar, posted 04-19-2017 10:02 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 1352 (805529)
04-19-2017 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 3:56 AM


Re: Re:Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
But it does not look like it was carved out by a river. the narrow parts maybe but not the wide parts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 3:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Pressie, posted 04-19-2017 7:01 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 271 by Davidjay, posted 04-19-2017 8:07 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 278 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2017 10:01 AM Faith has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 269 of 1352 (805531)
04-19-2017 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
04-19-2017 5:51 AM


Re: Re:Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
This one was funny.
Faith writes:
But it does not look like it was carved out by a river. the narrow parts maybe but not the wide parts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 04-19-2017 5:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 270 of 1352 (805534)
04-19-2017 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Coyote
04-19-2017 1:07 AM


Re: Summary.. Creation wins, Jesus wins
Excuse me, this is MY THREAD...
Not yours. I suggested it but because I am proposing too many new topics, therefore I suggested you propose it and I would take up the challenge, and HAVE.
I have absolutely proven my dates as biblical and reinforced in two other ways, and am heading to it further through the Speed of LIGHT DESIGN.
If we are to summarize this thread, Creation wins, evolution as per usual loses.
Idiotic evolutionists extrapolate, have missing links, missing eons, missing transition species, missing transition organs, have no evidence except artists imagainations, and have NO exact dating as does the logical rational mathematical exact Creation via a Creator rather than their absolutely ludicrous BIG BANG or slow gradual inflation, or whatever dream like state they imagaine.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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