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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 241 of 1352 (805480)
04-18-2017 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
04-18-2017 5:10 PM


Re: On "opinions"
Faith writes:
All of those things suffer from the same problem, that there is no witness of any of it IN THE PAST. it's all a matter of interpretation/guesswork from facts in the present. None of it as good as dinosaur bones.
Again Faith, that is not a matter of opinion but rather your continued willful ignorance. All of the things I mentioned are direct witnesses of what happened in the past. Change leaves evidence but your mythology did not.
Even the Bible itself is evidence that the Biblical Flood simply never happened.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 5:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 10:43 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 242 of 1352 (805487)
04-18-2017 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
04-18-2017 4:18 PM


Re: On "opinions"
The point is, as long as you have no way of actually seeing into the past,
That's wrong. Every telescope looking into the distant sky is actually looking at the past and not the present. When you look at the sun, you see it as it appeared 8 minutes ago. When you look at Saturn, you see it as it looked 80 minutes ago.
We can actually see the past right now. When we look at SN 1987, we see it as it was 168,000 years ago.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 4:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 10:35 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 1352 (805488)
04-18-2017 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by NoNukes
04-18-2017 9:40 PM


Re: On "opinions"
Yes, astronomy has the means to verify its theories, as I thought I said. The telescope. Space travel. None of the sciences of earth's history have such means. But I'm mot sure the astronomical timing is verified. Same problem as dating methods for earth.
Except the Bible is a way to look into earth's past.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2017 9:40 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2017 10:48 PM Faith has replied
 Message 250 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:13 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 244 of 1352 (805489)
04-18-2017 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
04-18-2017 5:50 PM


Re: On "opinions"
None of them is a direct witness. they are no better than our interpretations in the present.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 04-18-2017 5:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 04-19-2017 8:13 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 1352 (805490)
04-18-2017 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
04-18-2017 10:35 PM


Re: On "opinions"
Yes, astronomy has the means to verify its theories, as I thought I said. The telescope. Space travel. None of the sciences of earth's history have such means.
But I'm mot sure the timing is verified. Same problem as dating methods for earth.
The timing is verified in a number of ways. Check out the articles on SN1987 to see exactly how. Observations of SN1987 verify the constancy of the speed of light, confirm the previously measured distance from earth using completely independent means of measurement, and confirm the half life of radioactive nuclei.
Except the Bible is a way to look into earth's past.
Except that the Bible is absolutely silent on what happened at the site of the grand canyon.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 10:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 10:52 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 246 of 1352 (805491)
04-18-2017 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 5:31 PM


Re: On "opinions"
There's no point in continuing in this hopeless debate about the Bible, but I think it's been quite reliable as a clue to events in the past, certainly the occurrence and timing of the Flood. It gives enough facts to track time as well as enough to lead to evidence for the Flood. The rest of you operate on your own fallen methods, the interpretations of your own fallen minds, not reliable at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 5:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:03 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 247 of 1352 (805492)
04-18-2017 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by NoNukes
04-18-2017 10:48 PM


Re: On "opinions"
The Bible describes the earth covered in water and it provides some good clues to dating certain events. All the rest is conjecture based on it. The point is by using the Bible we are way ahead of those who rely only on their own fallible methods.
I
'm happy to concede any point you want to make about astronomy. I think there are good reasons to trust it as a science. Not the case with the sciences of earth's history.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 248 of 1352 (805493)
04-18-2017 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
04-18-2017 10:49 PM


Re: On "opinions"
There's no point in continuing in this hopeless debate about the Bible, but I think it's been quite reliable as a clue to events in the past, certainly the occurrence and timing of the Flood. It gives enough facts to track time as well as enough to lead to evidence for the Flood. The rest of you operate on your own fallen methods, the interpretations of your own fallen minds, not reliable at all.
Whereas you used your equally fallen mind to decide to treat the Bible as a science textbook.
You may never have used your mind after that, but you did use it to get to that point.
In that respect, we're in the same boat. The difference is that I used my "fallen mind" to look at the evidence and you used your "fallen mind" to look at a book which contains stories about ghosts, giants, witches and talking animals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 10:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:15 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 249 of 1352 (805494)
04-18-2017 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 5:10 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Eighteen miles at its widest, and various buttes it had to carve around. No way.
Show your working?
If you are denying that there are such obstacles in the wide part of the canyon I'll take it back until I can come up with the evidence. I thought it was pretty obvious from lots of photographs.
The look of the canyon fits a great cataract of water pouring over all the sides ...
Which sides? Have you tried to visualize what you're talking about?
There was another mile of strata above the current rim of the canyoni when the Flood started receding, so it would have rushed in from all sides as the cracks widened, washing away the uppermost layers until it got down to the current plateau. It would have been a great sheet of waterfall over the sides. There are lots of waterfalls in the canyon even now, many of them pouring from between the strata, but here's one from the top:
The river is a puny instrument for such a job.
7 times the volume of the Med, remember? That's a lot of water.
I'm sure there are many rivers with greater volume that haven't carved canyons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 5:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 250 of 1352 (805495)
04-18-2017 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
04-18-2017 10:35 PM


Re: On "opinions"
Yes, astronomy has the means to verify its theories, as I thought I said. The telescope.
But this is like saying "geology has the means to verify its theories: radiometric dating".
Who verifies the telescope? No human has been further than the moon, but we use telescopes to look at the stars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 10:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:18 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 251 of 1352 (805496)
04-18-2017 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:03 PM


Re: On "opinions"
Some things like the Bible are intended to compensate for our fallen minds. Most of the sciences rely on many people able to replicate the work, that fact certainly compensates for our fallen minds. They aren't sciences that are trying to peer into the undocumented /unwitnessed past.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:03 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 1352 (805497)
04-18-2017 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:13 PM


Re: On "opinions"
No it isn't. The viewer through the telescope becomes a direct witness. All dating methods rely on assumptions, interpretations, extrapolations. The Bible's timing contradicts all of it, of course, and it IS a direct witness. It should be considered above all the other methods for that reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2017 11:56 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 257 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 253 of 1352 (805499)
04-18-2017 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
04-18-2017 11:13 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
If you are denying that there are such obstacles in the wide part of the canyon I'll take it back until I can come up with the evidence. I thought it was pretty obvious from lots of photographs.
It was the bit where you said "no way" that requires some sort of supporting argument.
There was another mile of strata above the current rim of the canyoni when the Flood started receding, so it would have rushed in from all sides as the cracks widened, washing away the uppermost layers until it got down to the current plateau. It would have been a great sheet of waterfall over the sides. There are lots of waterfalls in the canyon even now, many of them pouring from between the strata, but here's one from the top:
Wouldn't the erosion from the mile of strata have filled in the canyon?
But apart from that, what puzzled me is that, y'know, water is flat, it finds its own level. Nothing's going to pour over the edge in a great cataract while the land is covered in water.
I'm sure there are many rivers with greater volume that haven't carved canyons.
You must be equally sure that there are other places besides Arizona that have been subject to a universal flood.
(The reason for the Grand Canyon in real geology is the uplift of the Colorado Plateau.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 04-18-2017 11:50 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


(1)
Message 254 of 1352 (805500)
04-18-2017 11:41 PM


"Bible Study" topic, not a science topic
When this topic started, it ended up being a topic for Davidjay to do his Biblical numbers thing. Thus it got moved to the "Bible Study" forum.
So, science is off-topic here.
Davidjay hasn't been here for a couple of days. Especially if he isn't participating, I see this topic heading for summation mode soon.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 1352 (805501)
04-18-2017 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Dr Adequate
04-18-2017 11:38 PM


Re: the idea of more than one biblical flood is what's silly, AND the date of course
Wouldn't the erosion from the mile of strata have filled in the canyon?
It broke up, due I think to the raising of the whole area, which is seen on the cross sections. Cracks formed in the upper layers. The water was starting to recede, it was no longer just standing, it exited over abd around the raised plateau and it exited through the cracks, the cracks kept widening, the water kept receding, the broken up strata came with it, it all rushed through the cracks until it was all gone through what was now a huge canyon,
But apart from that, what puzzled me is that, y'know, water is flat, it finds its own level. Nothing's going to pour over the edge in a great cataract while the land is covered in water.
It's receding now, not just standing. As it recedes there is more space for water above to recede to.
I'm sure there are many rivers with greater volume that haven't carved canyons.
You must be equally sure that there are other places besides Arizona that have been subject to a universal flood.
So?
(The reason for the Grand Canyon in real geology is the uplift of the Colorado Plateau.)
There is a pronounced uplift illustrated on the cross sections but it doesn't seem to be extensive enough to be the Colorado Plateau. However, maybe that's what it is. In any case yes I think the uplifted land is the reason for the canyon, for the breaking up of the higher strata, for the cracks that admitted the water, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-18-2017 11:38 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2017 12:04 PM Faith has replied

  
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