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Author Topic:   Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 62 of 66 (795908)
12-19-2016 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by NoNukes
12-17-2016 3:24 PM


Re: Slightly less afraid
Thanks for your answer. At least that's something substantive.
So doing something about lobbyists was in Obama's power set but not Trumps?
What would prevent them from letting go scientists based on a list of AGW proponents other than the fact that the department refused to provide the list?
I am sure that you know the answer to that better than I do but I would say that The Pendleton Act which
quote:
... provided that Federal Government jobs be awarded on the basis of merit and that Government employees be selected through competitive exams. The act also made it unlawful to fire or demote for political reasons employees who were covered by the law.
Also the fact that most everyone with any training as a scientist would be on that list. It would be like firing everyone at the bank who believes in compound interest.
If that leaves two few scientists to be effective, well, Perry wanted to close the department down anyway.
Perry is up against a steep learning curve. Do you think that he could actually get rid of the Department of Energy? Do you think that he will still want to after he learns what it is that they do there?
I don't see that Tillerman's opinion on AGW is important here given that he is the Secretary of State. It looks as if what is valued is Tillerman's opinion on how to make oil deals with Russia.
So it doesn't matter if the guy making the oil deals with Russia accepts AGW but that scientist in the back room over at the DOE has got to go. Curious approach to getting rid of those who hold such opinions.
In the end I agree that you (we) should be concerned about some of these appointments but there are robust mechanisms to keep these buffoons in line. Do you guys really think that the country has been taken over by Puritans on a witch hunt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by NoNukes, posted 12-17-2016 3:24 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 12-19-2016 3:56 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 63 of 66 (795912)
12-19-2016 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
12-18-2016 6:52 PM


Re: coup in NC
I expect that governor elect Cooper is going to have a hard time making changes in NC. The republicans still have a veto proof majority in the state legislature. His efforts are probably best spent in the bully pulpit and in getting more Democrats elected over the next four years.
Pretty much the case across the board, but it's not going to happen without substantial change to the democrat party. They really blew it when they forced Hillary on the rest of us.
Your question about Message 20 (Message 20?) is interesting ... are we being edited by NSA?
You are trying to display a deleted message. Please click your Back button and try again.
I thought messages were never deleted, or is this some extreme case?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2016 6:52 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 66 (795923)
12-19-2016 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dogmafood
12-19-2016 8:16 AM


Re: Slightly less afraid
U
So doing something about lobbyists was in Obama's power set but not Trumps?
Did Obama put an end to lobbyists? Did he really do anything substantial? Let's recall that at the time I asked my question you indicated that you had no idea how Trump could do anything about the topic, while still expressing optimism that he would fix it.
Perry is up against a steep learning curve. Do you think that he could actually get rid of the Department of Energy? Do you think that he will still want to after he learns what it is that they do there?
You seem to be arguing that having an AGW skeptic as president, head of the EPA, and head of the department of energy is nothing to worry about because those folks are all incompetent?
Yes I do believe that Perry can do some serious damage to clean energy projects associated with the department of energy simply by moving money around and starving off the projects he does not want to continue. That certainly would not violate the Pendleton act, which is not really that strong a defense against being fired for having a particular scientific opinion rather than a political opinion.
In the end I agree that you (we) should be concerned about some of these appointments but there are robust mechanisms to keep these buffoons in line. Do you guys really think that the country has been taken over by Puritans on a witch hunt?
I respectfully disagree. The folks in charge have the power to substantially purge their departments of any efforts towards AGW amelioration simply by how they allocate money and effort. They also appear to be collecting names of AGW active scientists. If you are a scientist who fights upstream, then you might well be gone. Do you really think that the US is going to continue participating in climate accords after Obama is gone? What has Trump promised to do about that?
ABE:
The Pendleton Act prevents firing due to political party affiliation, and nothing more than that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : Add fact.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dogmafood, posted 12-19-2016 8:16 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dogmafood, posted 12-24-2016 10:55 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 65 of 66 (796184)
12-24-2016 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by NoNukes
12-19-2016 3:56 PM


Re: Slightly less afraid
Let's recall that at the time I asked my question you indicated that you had no idea how Trump could do anything about the topic, while still expressing optimism that he would fix it.
I was optimistic about the fact that he said that he wanted to fix it. Similar to the way that everyone is pessimistic about him actually doing some of the other things that he has said he would do. How do you decide the difference between what he says and what he intends to do? Is he more likely to get rid of all the Muslims than he is to get rid of all the lobbyists? This disparage between rhetoric and action is perhaps the greater problem.
You seem to be arguing that having an AGW skeptic as president, head of the EPA, and head of the department of energy is nothing to worry about because those folks are all incompetent?
Not exactly. I am just seeking some balance to the assessment of how afraid we should really be and what it is that we should be afraid of. Is Perry really a complete fucking idiot? Sound bites and talking points aren't really the gold standard of appraisal. What happened in Texas under his tenure? I see that they built a lot of windmills and increased natural gas production which is better than burning coal. I also see that he tried to build more coal fired power plants but was thwarted. I personally have a fairly high amount of confidence in the legal structure that prevents people from just doing whatever they want be they Governor or President. There is a real disconnect between the dialogue and the reality. This is the problem.
...scientific opinion rather than a political opinion.
Not to take your quote out of context but I wholeheartedly agree that Trump's apparent inability to distinguish the difference between these two things is definitely something to worry about. I didn't think that science had opinions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 12-19-2016 3:56 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 12-24-2016 12:07 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 66 (796185)
12-24-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dogmafood
12-24-2016 10:55 AM


Re: Slightly less afraid
I didn't think that science had opinions.
Science provides informed opinions. All scientific conclusions are to some degree tentative.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dogmafood, posted 12-24-2016 10:55 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
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