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Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So Phat, who built the Ark? Noah and God both. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Why did god need help?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Really Phat? According to the Bible God simply told Noah what to do and it was all up to Noah, his family and likely his neighbors who then did not get to go on the cruise to do the work.
What exactly did the God character in the story do? Well in the story the God character sat around waiting until Noah & Co did the work and then turned the faucets on. Sat around for thirty days and turned the faucet off. Then realized he made a mistake and promised to never do it again. So what part of building the Ark did the God character do exactly? Are you like so many other Christians just making stuff up to add to the Bible stories?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Read the story. Noah had to believe God but he had to DO what God said, not just start a personality cult. Faith without works is dead and Noah would have been dead without the works. The works are the indicator that the faith is real.
Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The belief is necessary to listen to the instructions. People cant just run off doing random works and expect this to be proof of their faith. They would only be having faith in their own preconceived righteousness.
So make yourself an ark out of cypress wood. Make rooms in it. Cover it with tar inside and out. Here is how I want you to build it. The ark has to be 450 feet long. It has to be 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it. Leave the sides of the ark open a foot and a half from the top. Put a door in one side of the ark. Make lower, middle, and upper decks. - Genesis 6:14-16 To obey requires belief. Noah did everything exactly as God commanded him. - Genesis 6:22 Edited by Phat, : addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No it isn't. You judge the instructions on their own merits, regardless of the source. As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God. The belief is necessary to listen to the instructions. In fact, we can judge the messenger by the message. If the message makes no sense - e.g. regarding the age of the earth - then we need to disregard it.
Phat writes:
It isn't about OUR expectations. We do what we know is right and that's how God judges us.
People cant just run off doing random works and expect this to be proof of their faith. Phat writes:
Belief in the MESSAGE.
To obey requires belief.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: If Paul had believed this, he would have had no need to preach Christ.
You judge the instructions on their own merits, regardless of the source. As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God. We do what we know is right and that's how God judges us. Proverbs 14:12 writes: We do not need evidence to choose to believe. It may not be wise to choose not to choose Jesus while awaiting further evidence. In the meantime, go on doing what you know to be right...by all means....but it would be a mistake to wait until the apple falls from the tree and knocks you out rather than choosing to believe in gravity without evidence. There is a way that seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands. Noah, however...as well as Abraham...were obedient to God. They did not desire to be free from authority. On the contrary, they listened to authority and did what God said. They did so willingly. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If he didn't believe it, why did he say it?
ringo writes:
If Paul had believed this, he would have had no need to preach Christ. As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God. Phat writes:
For the umpteenth time, belief is for when there is no evidence.
We do not need evidence to choose to believe. Phat writes:
Nonsense. We all accept gravity BECAUSE of evidence. We see things fall and we infer that sitting under suspended objects is a bad idea. Believing in gravity without evidence is no better than believing in gremlins without evidence.
... it would be a mistake to wait until the apple falls from the tree and knocks you out rather than choosing to believe in gravity without evidence.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who does?
They did not desire to be free from authority. Phat writes:
Indeed they did. And God told Noah to build his own ark. Noah's salvation was in his own hands.
On the contrary, they listened to authority and did what God said.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
whose authority are you under?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Reality. I'm subject to gravity and friction and aging, so I have to be careful of slipping on the ice. I'm also subject to taxes and prices, so I have to pay my bills to avoid spending all of my time out on the ice. whose authority are you under? Why do I need to add a celestial leprechaun to that list?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why do I need to add a celestial leprechaun to that list? Yes...perhaps a celestial leprechaun would by definition be of no help...even if you got a pot of gold and all the lucky charms you could eat. You are convinced that you need nothing apart from what you have been given. Perhaps if I am your "Clarence" I have not earned my wings just yet. If GOD is useful as a font of wisdom, why not just seek wise humans? If GOD is useful due to magic, a whole new debate will ensue over whether magic actually exists and what it is by definition. If GOD is useful only as a voice of conscience which we all interpret differently, why are we even having a debate? Personally, I believe that GOD wants some form of relationship with everyone. The Trinity is, to me, simply GOD and Jesus who shared the same Spirit. You and Stile see no evidence nor even need of such a communion..thus perhaps you can find it among humanity alone. If I am Clarence, however, the verdict is still out on whether or not we will have a relationship ongoing. I certainly plan on hanging in there...as long as Percy provides the platform. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No. I'm convinced that I HAVE nothing apart from what I have been given. I am NOT convinced that there IS anything "apart" from what I have been given.
You are convinced that you need nothing apart from what you have been given. Phat writes:
Any wisdom that supposedly comes from God is filtered through humans - so what's the difference?
If GOD is useful as a font of wisdom, why not just seek wise humans?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: OK. If so, is it possible that all atheists have already been given the opportunity to know God? The next question is why would one prefer to ignore Him? (Stay hypothetical in your answer. ) Just because you lack evidence...is that any reason to ignore Him? What is it you would hypothetically want from Him that is any different from what I want from Him? I'm convinced that I HAVE nothing apart from what I have been given. I am NOT convinced that there IS anything "apart" from what I have been given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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