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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 1066 of 1163 (795641)
12-14-2016 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1018 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 2:52 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
I still await any evidence for evolution and am still wondering how you can accept such a theory when most major phyla appeared fully formed without any intermediates from the original LUCA.
We don't need to deal with phyla.
The past 5 million or so years of hominid evolution, with the various species and genera, are enough.
We see a lot of transitionals, some of which gave rise to new species and some of which led to dead-ends.
And knock off that 250 million year nonsense and all the flood nonsense. Neither has a place in scientific discourse. Try a theology class for that--and expect a lot of disagreement as there are something like 40,000 christian denominations and sects alone! The reason there are so many is when there is a disagreement they don't use evidence to determine which is correct--they just split. Rinse and repeat.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 2:52 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 1067 of 1163 (795644)
12-14-2016 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1022 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:23 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
If for example various apes over time show slight changes in cranium capacity, upright stance, reduced tree dwelling features, arm/leg ratios, pelvis ratio, reduced feet/toe use etc etc in a logical sequence this would be convincing.
We have that. I'm not going to spoon-feed it to you was you wouldn't accept it if I did.
If any one feature shows a huge backward jump, then it has to be eliminated from the evolutionary sequence as merely a completely separate species.
So? It may have to be eliminated as a human ancestor but that does not show it is not a transitional between an earlier and a later species. We have those too.
For example if one claimed ape/human intermediate fossil has all the features that appear to indicate a transition from an earlier ape, yet its proportionate pelvis size is significantly larger than its ancestor, it has to be eliminated from the transitionary sequence to humans. It is an irrelevant species unrelated to the others.
Not so. It may be irrelevant to the human line, but it may still be a transitional and it may still show evolution in action.
You somehow don't seem to realize that the theory of evolution applies across the board, to species that led to modern humans and to all the other critters out there, extinct and extant.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:23 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 1068 of 1163 (795646)
12-14-2016 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1031 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:40 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
Sure it can shrink too. The point is that any large jumps in the opposite direction of the required transition eliminate that organism from the so-called sequence.
What "sequence?" There is no "sequence" in the manner which you propose because there is no single goal to which evolution aspires. Each species changes gradually in the way it needs to in order to survive, and many species in fact don't survive--either they changed the wrong way or didn't change in time. Whatever. Over billions of years most species have not survived, but even many of thos have left descendant species.
Your point is useless in trying to disprove evolution.
It then becomes illogical guess work rather than evidence.
So says a creationist, who relies on ancient tribal myth instead of facts and evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:40 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1069 of 1163 (795647)
12-14-2016 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:49 PM


Re: UNNECESSARY RELIGIOUS DISRESPECT
I am thinking of closing down this discussion in this thread, not because of your complete disrespect for my religion and for God, but because I keep repeating myself regarding evidence for creationism.
Might I suggest that the disrespect comes from your practice of introducing faith and belief into a scientific thread as if either were evidence?
My point on this thread has been made.
And refuted.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:49 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1078 by mindspawn, posted 12-15-2016 5:25 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 1070 of 1163 (795649)
12-14-2016 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1038 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:59 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
In theory it can produce moves up and down. But if you no longer have a transitionary sequence of physiology then what do you have left? Nothing. So a large jump in the wrong direction of a particular feature logically eliminates that particular so-called intermediate as evidence for evolution.
Evolution is largely a reaction to changing environmental conditions, with a lot of founders effect, accidents, and pure good or bad luck thrown into the mix.
Each species will react as circumstances apply, some will thrive for a while and others will go extinct. All of this is in keeping with the theory of evolution.
You simply can't expect to take some species that evolve away from a successful line (as judged millions of years later) as evidence that evolution didn't occur. It is rather the opposite.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:59 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by mindspawn, posted 12-15-2016 5:00 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1071 of 1163 (795650)
12-14-2016 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1057 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 5:11 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
Creationism predicts that all kinds were created at one moment in the past. Therefore all current organisms will be found through all layers in approximately the same form as modern organisms.
The evidence does not support that view.
We have transitionals for a large number of species, including modern humans.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 5:11 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1073 by jar, posted 12-14-2016 10:48 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 1077 by mindspawn, posted 12-15-2016 5:17 AM Coyote has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 1072 of 1163 (795657)
12-14-2016 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1057 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 5:11 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
Creationism predicts that all kinds were created at one moment in the past. Therefore all current organisms will be found through all layers in approximately the same form as modern organisms.
And this is not the case. Therefore (as surveyed in the OP) creationists have come up with some extremely bad excuses for why it is not the case. To this you have added your hiding-under-the-Siberian-traps nonsense, which also doesn't work. So Creationism stands refuted. Good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 5:11 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1076 by mindspawn, posted 12-15-2016 5:14 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1073 of 1163 (795658)
12-14-2016 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1071 by Coyote
12-14-2016 9:13 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
Creationism predicts that all kinds were created at one moment in the past. Therefore all current organisms will be found through all layers in approximately the same form as modern organisms.
And that is so utterly hilarious that that alone is sufficient to assign Creationism to the trash heap of piss poor comedy. Not a single example of what the Biblical Creation myths claim was created has even been found in any of the oldest samples.
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was not so. Nope, none of those things were created in the beginning.
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven but that too didn't happen and there were no fowls in the beginning.
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good except that too simply never happened and there were no great whales in the beginning.
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so but once again he was wrong and there were no cattle or beasts of the earth in the beginning.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth except there was no man or fish or fowl or cattle in the beginning.
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat but yet again God was jess funnin them because there were no trees or fruit with seed in the beginning.
If Creationism makes such a stupid prediction then it explains why Creationism seem to be as false as the God in the story.
Edited by jar, : left a fraz out
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin of even basik words
Edited by jar, : and no great wales either only no great whales

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 9:13 PM Coyote has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1074 of 1163 (795666)
12-15-2016 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1070 by Coyote
12-14-2016 9:08 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
Evolution is largely a reaction to changing environmental conditions, with a lot of founders effect, accidents, and pure good or bad luck thrown into the mix.
Each species will react as circumstances apply, some will thrive for a while and others will go extinct. All of this is in keeping with the theory of evolution.
You simply can't expect to take some species that evolve away from a successful line (as judged millions of years later) as evidence that evolution didn't occur. It is rather the opposite.
All you say about evolution is nice in theory. My point is that an evolutionary sequence simply has to be convincing. And with zero convincing sequences what is evolution left with. An interesting concept. Interesting theory you guys have.
But if your evidence for this great theory of yours is faulty, do not expect it just to be accepted because you say so. If one species in your sequence does not fit, it should be disregarded as evidence. I state the obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1070 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 9:08 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2016 5:32 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1075 of 1163 (795667)
12-15-2016 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by edge
12-14-2016 8:08 PM


Flood at the PT boundary
You seem to dispute a widespread transgression/regression event at the PT boundary. The following link references many studies about this matter as listed below. The evidence shows that both occurred. The bible indicates this widespread flood followed by a rapid regression, which explains the evidence. Often a regression will cause a hiatus, washing away the evidence of the transgression, but generally the signs of both occurring are widespread at the PT boundary:
http://www.geo.tu-freiberg.de/...eminar/os03_04/herrmann.pdf
""Sea level changes at Permian Triassic boundary are a widespread discussed subject in the last three
decades and there are still discussions about it. Every theory has facts that seem to be correct. In
comparison to palaeoclimatology a transgression is to be favoured, because of the decline of the ice
sheet in the Upper Permian in combination with a heating. On the other hand isotope studies from
HEYDARI et al. (2001) show another trend, which also seems to be true. In general, there is no trend
that sedimentological analysis gave other results as geochemical, in every scientific field of geology
there is confusion. What theory is the right, isn't presume to say""
[ Long cut-n-paste of the references from the above link deleted, please see link for the references. --Admin ]
Edited by Admin, : Remove long list of references.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by edge, posted 12-14-2016 8:08 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1076 of 1163 (795668)
12-15-2016 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1072 by Dr Adequate
12-14-2016 10:44 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
And this is not the case. Therefore (as surveyed in the OP) creationists have come up with some extremely bad excuses for why it is not the case. To this you have added your hiding-under-the-Siberian-traps nonsense, which also doesn't work. So Creationism stands refuted. Good.
That is a bit rich coming from evolutionists who are the masters of bad excuses for their lack of fossils. The Siberian highlands is the niche environment most obviously matching today's common environment. So of course that is the place to look for ancient representations of modern organisms.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 10:44 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1096 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2016 9:55 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1077 of 1163 (795669)
12-15-2016 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1071 by Coyote
12-14-2016 9:13 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
The evidence does not support that view.
We have transitionals for a large number of species, including modern humans.
Yes yes, I have heard that before. Yet the only evidence presented for human transitions is a pic of some skulls, unlabelled may I add. Unless I have missed a post which actually tries to present some evidence. Maybe I missed a post? If so I would like to deal with it.
Label them with their species name, I will look up the transitionary sequence and see if it is logical. If your sequence is not logical your point is irrelevant. I dare you. show me your so-called evidence for evolution. A list of species, named, and dated , in a transitionary sequence from non-human apes and leading to modern humans.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 9:13 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1078 of 1163 (795670)
12-15-2016 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Coyote
12-14-2016 9:04 PM


Re: UNNECESSARY RELIGIOUS DISRESPECT
quote:
And refuted.
? Have they discovered a hidden cache of lovely PreCambrian intermediate fossils to explain the sudden appearance of most phyla in the Cambrian Explosion?? I think not. When things just appear, the better explanation is that they just appeared. That is what the evidence is showing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 9:04 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1079 of 1163 (795671)
12-15-2016 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1074 by mindspawn
12-15-2016 5:00 AM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
All you say about evolution is nice in theory.
Well spotted, it's probably the most establishing, evidenced and complete theory of the natural world ever developed.
My point is that an evolutionary sequence simply has to be convincing.
Another fine point, well made.
The scientific world - and, as it happens, the majority of the religious world - is convinced. It underpins all of biological science. Virtually none of biology would make sense without it.
What is equally convincing is that only those with extreme religious beliefs remain unconvinced. This is not a coincidence. It is not possible to convince you with evidence, you are already convinced that no matter what evidence you see, that it is wrong. It MUST be wrong for you to hold the beliefs that you hold, so you create outragously rediculous scenarios such as fossils hiding in Siberia to explain to yourself, and only yourself, why the theory is wrong.
Creationists are the precedents for the current malaise of 'post truth'. Any old crap story can be invented to justify a ludicrous position. Like you, it's not necessary to hold any hard-earned qualifications and have real knowledge to form an opinion - you just create sciency sounding soundbites, pollute real science and distort and cherry pick real findings. It's a corrupt and corrupting practice, and should your imaginary god exist, he'll reserve a very special place for people like you that lie in his name.
Think on it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1074 by mindspawn, posted 12-15-2016 5:00 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1081 by mindspawn, posted 12-15-2016 5:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1080 of 1163 (795672)
12-15-2016 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1058 by PaulK
12-14-2016 5:16 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
Even there it would be false to say that there is NO evidence of intermediates. Such as the trace fossils of earlier Arthropoda alluded to previously in this thread
Please be more specific about the trace fossils. If arthropods existed earlier than expected this could merely be confirmation of earlier trilobites not necessarily confirmation of their PREDECESSOR. ie please post more detail about the physiology of the earlier arthropods to make your point relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2016 5:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1083 by PaulK, posted 12-15-2016 6:07 AM mindspawn has replied

  
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