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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1021 of 1163 (795574)
12-14-2016 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 7:54 AM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
The evidence shows fully formed organisms suddenly appearing. ...
No, the evidence shows all organisms are essentially fully formed, as would be expected from the theory and the evidence that supports the theory.
Because of the sketchiness necessary in the fossil record, due to the random formation of fossils, all individuals "appear suddenly" -- we don't see their growth or development.
Your phrasing is absurd unless you expect critters that are half one form and half another -- an old creationist pratt that bears no resemblance to evolutionary science or theory.
... but the transitionary fossils are all hidden away in niches or never even fossilised. For EVERY organism through EVERY geological period these transitions are missing. ...
False. We have many examples of intermediates (a more appropriate term) and in fact every fossil is intermediate between ancestors and descendants. The homologies show the patterns of heredity.
The only actual evidence is of clades, which is exactly what creationists expect, an adaptive variety formed from an original organism.
Except that there is no evidence of clades that don't have predecessors in larger clades, evidence that contradicts separation of kinds into distinct clades unrelated to others.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 7:54 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1023 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:29 PM RAZD has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1022 of 1163 (795578)
12-14-2016 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1017 by Taq
12-14-2016 2:50 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
How does one "prove a transition" in your eyes? What evidence does it take?
This is a fair question. It would take a number of small changes over time with absolute consistency in all features until a completely different organism is in view. If for example various apes over time show slight changes in cranium capacity, upright stance, reduced tree dwelling features, arm/leg ratios, pelvis ratio, reduced feet/toe use etc etc in a logical sequence this would be convincing. If any one feature shows a huge backward jump, then it has to be eliminated from the evolutionary sequence as merely a completely separate species. For example if one claimed ape/human intermediate fossil has all the features that appear to indicate a transition from an earlier ape, yet its proportionate pelvis size is significantly larger than its ancestor, it has to be eliminated from the transitionary sequence to humans. It is an irrelevant species unrelated to the others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1017 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:50 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 3:32 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1033 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 3:43 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1048 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 4:24 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1067 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 8:54 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1023 of 1163 (795580)
12-14-2016 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1021 by RAZD
12-14-2016 3:04 PM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
quote:
No, the evidence shows all organisms are essentially fully formed, as would be expected from the theory and the evidence that supports the theory.
Because of the sketchiness necessary in the fossil record, due to the random formation of fossils, all individuals "appear suddenly" -- we don't see their growth or development.
Your phrasing is absurd unless you expect critters that are half one form and half another -- an old creationist pratt that bears no resemblance to evolutionary science or theory
Yes one would definitely expect critters that are a transition, showing features in transition from one form to the next. Definitely. This is not absurd, it is EXACTLY what one would expect from evolutionary theory. This concept that all change is hidden is merely an excuse from evolutionists for the lack of discovered transitions. Where is the primitive trilobite that shows some signs of being in transition from some earlier LUCA? One cannot just have a theory and justify the lack of evidence, one needs evidence for it to be acceptable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2016 3:04 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1026 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 3:34 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 1027 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 3:34 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 1114 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2016 3:22 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1024 of 1163 (795581)
12-14-2016 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1022 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:23 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
It would take a number of small changes over time with absolute consistency in all features until a completely different organism is in view. If for example various apes over time show slight changes in cranium capacity, upright stance, reduced tree dwelling features, arm/leg ratios, pelvis ratio, reduced feet/toe use etc etc in a logical sequence this would be convincing.
That's exactly what we have for the hominid sequence.
If any one feature shows a huge backward jump, then it has to be eliminated from the evolutionary sequence as merely a completely separate species.
Why couldn't evolution produce reversions to previous adaptations? What is stopping it from doing so?
For example if one claimed ape/human intermediate fossil has all the features that appear to indicate a transition from an earlier ape, yet its proportionate pelvis size is significantly larger than its ancestor, it has to be eliminated from the transitionary sequence to humans.
Why can't size increase, then decrease, and then increase again within a transitional series? What would evolution not be allowed to shrink a feature?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:23 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1031 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:40 PM Taq has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1025 of 1163 (795583)
12-14-2016 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1016 by Taq
12-14-2016 2:49 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
How does the interpretation not suggest evolution?
Due to the organisms appearing fully formed.
quote:
Again, how do you determine if a fossil is fully formed?
If there are no preceding intermediates of similar physiology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1016 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 2:49 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1028 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 3:36 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1040 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2016 4:02 PM mindspawn has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 1026 of 1163 (795584)
12-14-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:29 PM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
mindspawn writes:
Yes one would definitely expect critters that are a transition, showing features in transition from one form to the next.
What features would those be?
This concept that all change is hidden is merely an excuse from evolutionists for the lack of discovered transitions.
Tiktaalik roseae, a quite famous tetrapod intermediate fossil, was not found until quite recently. Where do you think it was for the last 150 years before it was found?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:29 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 1027 of 1163 (795585)
12-14-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:29 PM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
This concept that all change is hidden is merely an excuse from evolutionists for the lack of discovered transitions.
This concept that all change is hidden is merely a lie that you have made up in your head because you are unable to rebut what we actually say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:29 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1028 of 1163 (795586)
12-14-2016 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1025 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:33 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
mindspawn writes:
Due to the organisms appearing fully formed.
That doesn't mean anything until you show us how you determine if a fossil is fully formed.
If there are no preceding intermediates of similar physiology.
How do you determine that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:33 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 4:44 PM Taq has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 1029 of 1163 (795587)
12-14-2016 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1005 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 1:34 PM


Re: Evolution has theory, no evidence
I see multiple species in that picture of yours. Can you explain your interpretation of the picture and why you interpret it like you do?
It is a picture of many intermediate forms, and I interpret it as a picture of many intermediate forms because it is a picture of many intermediate forms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 1:34 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 4:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 1030 of 1163 (795588)
12-14-2016 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1018 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 2:52 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
Yet I still await any evidence for evolution ...
That would be the fossil record, genetics, morphology, embryology, biogeography, behavioral ecology, etc.
Do you have any evidence for organisms being poofed into existence by a psychopathic invisible wizard who lives in the sky?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 2:52 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1031 of 1163 (795589)
12-14-2016 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1024 by Taq
12-14-2016 3:32 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
Why can't size increase, then decrease, and then increase again within a transitional series? What would evolution not be allowed to shrink a feature?
Sure it can shrink too. The point is that any large jumps in the opposite direction of the required transition eliminate that organism from the so-called sequence. It then becomes illogical guess work rather than evidence. The logic points to a separate species if there is a feature that involves a significant backward jump in the expected direction of evolution. In the end most claimed sequences have too many irrelevant species included in the sequence and therefore make the sequence untenable.
I find your picture of skulls unconvincing unless you identify the species A to N.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1024 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 3:32 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1032 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 3:42 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 1068 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 9:01 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1032 of 1163 (795590)
12-14-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1031 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:40 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
The point is that any large jumps in the opposite direction of the required transition eliminate that organism from the so-called sequence.
Why?
Why can't evolution produce a lineage where size moves up and down over time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:40 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 1033 of 1163 (795591)
12-14-2016 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1022 by mindspawn
12-14-2016 3:23 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
For example if one claimed ape/human intermediate fossil has all the features that appear to indicate a transition from an earlier ape, yet its proportionate pelvis size is significantly larger than its ancestor, it has to be eliminated from the transitionary sequence to humans. It is an irrelevant species unrelated to the others.
Just like if my father is significantly taller than me and my grandfather, he must be eliminated from the transitional sequence to me; he is an irrelevant person unrelated to the others.
Creationist logic, it's so delicious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:23 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1035 by mindspawn, posted 12-14-2016 3:53 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1034 of 1163 (795592)
12-14-2016 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1030 by Dr Adequate
12-14-2016 3:39 PM


UNNECESSARY RELIGIOUS DISRESPECT
quote:
That would be the fossil record, genetics, morphology, embryology, biogeography, behavioral ecology, etc.
Do you have any evidence for organisms being poofed into existence by a psychopathic invisible wizard who lives in the sky?
I am thinking of closing down this discussion in this thread, not because of your complete disrespect for my religion and for God, but because I keep repeating myself regarding evidence for creationism. My point on this thread has been made.
Evidence favors creationism because most Phyla appeared fully formed in the Cambrian explosion without any evidence of intermediates. The reasons you have for not finding intermediates excuses your view, but does not favor your view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1030 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 3:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1036 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 3:54 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 1046 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 4:15 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 1069 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2016 9:04 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 1035 of 1163 (795593)
12-14-2016 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1033 by Dr Adequate
12-14-2016 3:43 PM


Re: the evidence supports evolution
quote:
Just like if my father is significantly taller than me and my grandfather, he must be eliminated from the transitional sequence to me; he is an irrelevant person unrelated to the others.
Creationist logic, it's so delicious.
I wouldn't take it to that ridiculous extent. So this is a strawman argument.
Obviously physiology is relevant, your (unintentional?) implication is that physiology is irrelevant when discussing transitionary sequences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 3:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by Taq, posted 12-14-2016 3:55 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 1045 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2016 4:10 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
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