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Author Topic:   Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 1 of 169 (775143)
12-28-2015 8:09 PM


Matthew 12:40 quotes the Messiah saying that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. A majority of folks believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week. This period of time, however, would only allow for 2 night times. To account for this discrepancy, it is frequently explained that the verse is using common Jewish idiomatic language of the time.
I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb) knows of any writing which shows a phrase from the first century or before which states a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when the actual period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
And remember, the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. There are other topics that do that. However, for those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language I should think that one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used in order to say that it was common. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 1:43 AM rstrats has replied
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2015 10:39 AM rstrats has replied
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 1:52 PM rstrats has replied
 Message 136 by candle2, posted 01-05-2019 3:48 PM rstrats has not replied
 Message 137 by candle2, posted 01-05-2019 3:53 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 4 of 169 (775164)
12-29-2015 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 1:43 AM


This topic is not about calendar days. It's about daytimes and night times and whether or not it was common to say that a daytime and/or a night time was to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 1:43 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 11:10 AM rstrats has replied
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-01-2016 1:40 AM rstrats has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 9 of 169 (775183)
12-29-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 11:10 AM


kbertsche,
re: "Yes, understood."
I'm sorry, but I don't think that you did/do.
re: "As I said after presenting two biblical passages:"
Neither of the 2 passages state a specific number of daytimes and/or a specific number of night times where at least a portion of each one of the daytimes and at least a portion of each one of the night times absolutely couldn't have occurred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 11:10 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 10 of 169 (775185)
12-29-2015 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2015 10:39 AM


Cat Sci,
re: "It seems that a 'day' is ticked off and counted after there is an evening and then a morning."
Yes, a calendar day. But where do you have a daytime and/or a night time being "ticked" off and counted when at least a portion of the daytime and at least a portion of the night time couldn't have occurred?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2015 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 17 of 169 (775211)
12-30-2015 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
12-29-2015 5:13 PM


Cat Sci,
re: "Yes, it it 3 different days, but Matt 20:14 explicitly says '3 days and 3 nights'".
Well, you got the individual numbers correct. Now you just need to arrange them in the correct order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-29-2015 5:13 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 18 of 169 (775213)
12-30-2015 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 4:41 PM


kbertsche,
re: "First, I probably should have quoted from YLT rather than NASB:"
Why do you suppose that virtually all versions/translations, including the English-Greek/Hebrew Interlinear, include the word "ago" while Young doesn't?
But even if "ago" doesn't belong, I don't see how the Samuel account shows an example where at least a part of each daytime and/or at least a part of each night time couldn't have been involved.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 4:41 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 26 of 169 (775325)
12-31-2015 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
12-31-2015 4:17 AM


PaulK,
re: "You cannot settle a disagreement by just declaring yourself right. You do not get to dictate the idioms used by people living thousands of years ago. You do not even have any special expertise to add weight to your opinions."
Nor has he shown any examples where a daytime and/or a night time was forecast to be involived with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.

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rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 33 of 169 (775355)
12-31-2015 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by kbertsche
12-31-2015 2:23 PM


kbertsche,
re: "The question in this thread is whether or not the phrase 'three days and three nights' is an idiom.
That is incorrect. The issue is in regard to it being a "common" idiom.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 36 of 169 (794448)
11-16-2016 6:32 AM


Someone new looking in may know of examples.

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 38 of 169 (794450)
11-16-2016 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Pressie
11-16-2016 7:05 AM


Pressle,
Are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2016 7:05 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2016 7:28 AM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 40 of 169 (794452)
11-16-2016 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Pressie
11-16-2016 7:28 AM


Pressle,
re: "You can't be serious."
Oh, but I am.
re: "Trying to deflect reality I see."
What reality do you think I am trying to deflect? Please be specific.
re: "Trying to change the subject."
The subject of this topic: There are some who have said that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I should think that one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used in order to say that it was common. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise, i.e., examples where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2016 7:28 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 8:08 AM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 43 of 169 (794502)
11-16-2016 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
11-16-2016 8:08 AM


Re: Why?
jar,
re: "Why?"
Simply curious.
re: "What possible difference could it make?"
Whether it was common or not probably makes no differnce in the grand scheme of things.
re: " Why should anyone care which meaning or meanings were correct?"
That's an issue for another topic.
re: " It's not like the Bible is not filled with contradictions, factual errors and ambiguities."
What contradiction, factual error or ambiguity does Matthew 12:40 show?
re: "What possible difference could one more such example make?"
One more? I have yet to see even one example.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 8:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 4:19 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 45 of 169 (794559)
11-17-2016 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
11-16-2016 4:19 PM


Re: Why?
jar,
re: "If you have never seen an example..."
Sorry, I misread you comment. When I said that I'd not seen even one example, I was referring to an example where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 11-16-2016 4:19 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by kbertsche, posted 10-02-2017 12:10 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 46 of 169 (821032)
10-01-2017 11:15 AM


Since it has again been awhile, someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic/figure of speech/colloquial language may know of some writing as requested in the OP.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 51 of 169 (821105)
10-02-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by kbertsche
10-02-2017 12:10 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "I gave you an example in post #3 of this thread, from the OT, suggesting that 'three days and three nights' was a Hebrew idiom for 'three days ago'".
Please explain how that shows an example where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by kbertsche, posted 10-02-2017 12:10 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
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