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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You've apparently missed Admin's many admonishments not to expect people to remember some argument you gave: YOU are required to repeat it. And most of yours are wacko enough that I sometimes don't even try to understand them. I've got enough other people to read here.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What alternative explanation?
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Well the world was once a single continent well covered with plants because of its very pleasant climate, also an abundance of animal life, along with a lot of sinful human beings. And where is this represented in the geological record? Geology recognizes the "Supercontinent" Pangaea. Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate? Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings? So, where did you study geology? You do realize that the Pangea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17912 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7
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So you've got a "best' explanation which is only "best" because it is the only one you have left - you haven't a real idea of how it could even possibly work. Message 146
And an argument which is quite obviously the product of a serious failure to understand the issues as I have already explained. Message 151 Not much of a case.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And geology recognizes humans in Pangaea? It should I'm sure. But since there are strata on Pangaea clearly the Flood wiped them all out. Also, I've made the point before that the upturned strata of England, so nicely arranged as a unit, are proof that the continents didn't split in the middle of the building of the Geo Column as conventional dating says, which would have disturbed the column in the middle, which obviously didn't happen, but afterward, and that the tectonic disturbance that would have occurred at the time of the split is the reason for the uptilted strata. Just another small point against the Geo Timescale.
Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate? Of course not. You march to a uniformitarian drummer which throws off all your interpretations of the past.
Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings? Of course not. That might raise questions all by itself as to the reliability of geological judgments.
So, where did you study geology? At EvC and Wikipedia and various online geology sources as well as a few books on the subject over the last fifteen or so years. Had the very best of teachers, including yourself.
You do realize that the Pangea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you? In that case we have at least partial corroboration of what I'm saying, yes?
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2358 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Faith writes:
No, you're flat out wrong. Coyote writes: The last time there was a single continent was about 175 million years ago. Modern humans came along about 174.8 million years later. Sorry, that's interpretation, not fact. The dating of various things can be established and cross-checked by various methods. The results are facts. What you are espousing is the interpretation--you are looking at facts and ignoring, misrepresenting, or misinterpreting them to fit your a priori religious belief no matter what the facts say. We should have an "Apologetics" Forum for you, as what you are preaching certainly isn't science--its the exact opposite--and doesn't really belong in the Science Forum.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2383 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Faith writes:
Faith, there is a lot of interpretation and assumption underlying your comments. Here's another one from Glenn Morton:He claims the Flood wasn't Global. There is one very brief answer to this that ought to satisfy someone who claims he's still a Christian: There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global. It took him a hundred years to build it, enough time to have escaped to any area that would have been spared the Flood. I don't think there's anything else to say on this subject. I disagree that "There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global".1) If the flood covered a large enough region, it would still take significant time for animals to repopulate the area, so there would still be a need to have animals handy for food. 2) many of the animals in the account were "clean" animals for sacrifice. There would also have been a need to have animals handy for sacrifice if the flood were not global. I agree that Noah would have had time to have "escaped to any area that would have been spared the Flood". But escape was not God's only goal. Noah's task was also to be a testimony to those around him and was to provide a "type" of Christ (1 Pet 3). FYI, Glenn Morton did lots of thinking about the Flood, and concluded that Noah's flood must correlate to the infilling of the Mediterranean, about 5 million years ago. This would make Noah and Adam Neanderthals. Very few people agree with Glenn on this. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Faith writes: Also, I've made the point before that the upturned strata of England, so nicely arranged as a unit, are proof that the continents didn't split in the middle of the building of the Geo Column as conventional dating says, which would have disturbed the column in the middle, which obviously didn't happen, but afterward, and that the tectonic disturbance that would have occurred at the time of the split is the reason for the uptilted strata. Just another small point against the Geo Timescale. Weird then that England etc was separated from continental Europe by a melting glacier some 450,000 years ago.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
KB, that's all very interesting, but as with all OEC interpretations it's a lot of adjustment to worldly assumptions. Even if I can sympathize with the Christian OECs to some extent in their reasons for making such an adjustment, I'm not going to consider rewriting Christian theological history because of it, involving all that reinterpretation of what the Hebrew terms mean.
The Bible may be hard to interpret in some places but it is NOT imprecise and its interpreters going back to earliest times are NOT id*iots. The whole world has always been understood to have been entirely covered by the Flood. Reducing it to a "region" is just a sort of mealymouthed accommodation to things we are unable to understand. What kind of "testimony" is it anyway to cause people to think the Flood was worldwide when it wasn't? Noah is a testimony to US, too, not just to the ancient world. A half-baked Flood is no testimony to modern man of Noah as a type of Christ if the entire earth was not drowned, especially considering that it's intended as a harbinger/type of the coming final Judgment. Is Jesus coming to judge and reign over only a "region" of Creation? In the "region" that survived the Flood were there still human beings alive? What kind of testimony could that possibly be? Were there animals still alive after scripture tells us that everything that has breath perished? I'm sure Morton is completely sincere and has excellent reasons for what he thinks, but he must certainly be wrong. I'd much rather take Kurt Wise's position that all the evidence is against YEC but I'm still going to be a YEC. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
What alternative explanation? This chain of posts has become idiotic. If by saying so, I've earned a suspension then I'll gladly take it now. But your refusal to follow a chain of two/three posts two times in a row is beyond reasonable. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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Admin Director Posts: 13107 From: EvC Forum Joined:
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I need to clarify an earlier moderator request. This is from Faith's Message 241 in reply to NoNukes:
Faith in Message 241 writes: You've apparently missed Admin's many admonishments not to expect people to remember some argument you gave: YOU are required to repeat it. The request was to repeat arguments from earlier stages of the discussion or from earlier threads, and not say things like, "I explained that once before," or "I already proved that," or "This was already shown wrong," or "We've been over this already," or to offer something abbreviated or incomplete. The rationale I've always offered is that explanations or arguments or evidence are often presented before some necessary common ground has been established or before some necessary information has been presented. If the issue is revisited in the future then it is not reasonable to expect old details to be remembered. This is not to say that entire long messages must be cut-n-pasted into new messages. Do what makes sense, like a summarized argument with a link. The desire is to eliminate arguments that are all too brief to serve their purpose. But it is reasonable to expect people to keep the details of recent discussion in mind. There should be no need to clutter threads with repeats from the past few days.
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edge Member (Idle past 1958 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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And geology recognizes humans in Pangaea?
It should I'm sure. But since there are strata on Pangaea clearly the Flood wiped them all out. So you can't document humans living on Pangaea. It's not even an interpretation, it's a wish, right?
Also, I've made the point before that the upturned strata of England, so nicely arranged as a unit, are proof that the continents didn't split in the middle of the building of the Geo Column as conventional dating says, which would have disturbed the column in the middle, which obviously didn't happen, but afterward, and that the tectonic disturbance that would have occurred at the time of the split is the reason for the uptilted strata.
Yes, they are nicely layered and arranged because there was little tectonic disturbance there. It's kind of like living in Iowa during the early Paleozoic and saying, "Appalachian Mountains? What Appalachian Mountans?"
Just another small point against the Geo Timescale.
If it were true, yes.
Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate? Of course not. You march to a uniformitarian drummer which throws off all your interpretations of the past. Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings?
Of course not. That might raise questions all by itself as to the reliability of geological judgments. You are not getting the point. I asked you to document the things you were saying but you can't seem to give us any more than "Pangaea existed". I hardly call that pertinent evidence supporting your story.
So, where did you study geology?
At EvC and Wikipedia and various online geology sources as well as a few books on the subject over the last fifteen or so years. Had the very best of teachers, including yourself. You do realize that the Pangaea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you?
In that case we have at least partial corroboration of what I'm saying, yes? Are you just cherry-picking continents now?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Of course I just roll my eyes at the date, but I have no reason to dispute the glacier interpretation in itself. But what on earth do you think it proves anyway? Pangaea supposedly broke up in the middle of the formation of the geological column, but there is no sign of what must have been a big disturbance to the strata at the midpoint of the column, when North America separated from Europe and Africa; it's all quite nicely arranged like slices of toast to be offered to guests; from which I conclude that the tectonic upheaval occurred after all the strata were laid down, meaning after the Flood. SOON after.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Dang it, NN, I'm not saying he isn't a Christian, Here is exactly what you said when you posted your nonsense:
There is one very brief answer to this that ought to satisfy someone who claims he's still a Christian: There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global. Your answer, which requires acceptance of your YEC beliefs is not satisfactory to any Christian who does not accept them, be that person Morton, myself, GDR, etc. Your statement is nonsense. Your insistence that such folks are not Christian is non Biblical. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by Admin, : Fix second quote. It was too brief for me to make sense of the response, so I filled it out. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Your understanding is based on myth. All those bona fide geological sources are myth? Including yourself? Nice of you to admit it.
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