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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1665 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2595 days) Posts: 564 Joined:
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quote: Someone doesn't understand how basic erosion works. That river could have been *smaller* when it started cutting and the walls would still slope back like that. JB
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edge Member (Idle past 1927 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Normal meanders:
Meanders form in low-gradient (slope) topography, near base level. They are considered to represent a mature stage of stream development because erosion has operated to a point where there is limited vertical relief (i.e., no mountains). Typically, they form in broad plains or piedmonts near sea level. examples occur all over the world, but most of us are familiar with the Mississippi River meanders in the mid-continent area of the United States. They usually do not form deep canyons because they cannot erode below base level. They form on flat terrain. So did the one in the Grand Canyon pictured above. But that one cut very deep. What's the difference? Volume of water perhaps? Now in case anyone hasn't noticed, the Colorado River, in the Grand Canyon is not near sea level. This suggests that the region has been uplifted since the formation of meanders. What does uplift do? It causes high relief and a lowering of base level. This allows the stream to down cut in a geologically rapid way. A modern example would be the progress of the Niagara Falls as it works its way upstream forming a gorge. So, the morphology of the canyon shows two stages: 1. Mature stream with meandering course. 2. Youthful stream with high gradients and active erosion. The meandering pattern was established long before and guided the down cutting of what we see now as the Grand Canyon. And that is why they are called 'incised' meanders. The width of the canyon has little to do with stream erosion per se. It is caused by the fact that the rocks cannot support vertical walls and will recede farther and farther outward as the canyon gets deeper. Think of trying to cut a narrow trench in sand or soil. Without retaining walls, you cannot do it. So, Faith wants this to be one catastrophic drainage event. It turns out that we have an example in the Lake Missoula floods which are a 'break-out' event that resulted in the channeled scablands in Washington state. Unfortunately for Faith, the scablands look nothing like what we see in, or around, or above the Grand Canyon. For one, there are no meanders. That type of flow regime simply does not produce meanders. Braided streams, perhaps, but no meanders. The other item I'd like to address is the 'soft-but-not-too-soft' state of the Grand Canyon rocks during erosion. Basically, we know that the rocks had to have a fairly high competence to maintain a mile deep canyon. This would not be possible if the rocks were not completely lithified prior to erosion of the canyon. Furthermore, we can see some straight side canyons that had to be controlled by fractures and faults which could not be maintained in a soft sediment that some YECs say made up the stratigraphy. If Faith's scenario were correct we've wasted a lot of time an money shoring up trenches for workers at construction sites over the years. However, I'm pretty sure that they appreciated the safety factor. There are a lot more interesting factors to consider in the formation of streams and canyons. One thing to remember that they are all evolving and all geologically temporary.
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edge Member (Idle past 1927 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined:
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Someone doesn't understand how basic erosion works. That river could have been *smaller* when it started cutting and the walls would still slope back like that.
In fact, I think that most people don't understand that. When people say that a stream is 'underfit' for its valley, my professor used to say that 'all streams are underfit.' The walls have to fall in and that changes the rate of erosion in the stream. It creates another dam or restriction which is eventually burst and then the stream resumes its 'normal' flow. Most erosion is probably episodic. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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ThinAirDesigns Member (Idle past 2595 days) Posts: 564 Joined: |
The walls are always attempting to reach their particular angle of repose (which of course varies with material).
JB Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
edge writes: Most erosion is probably episodic. And may also be positional; during one episode there will be deposition upstream of a damming event with minor erosion down stream followed by major erosion down stream after the dam bursts.
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edge Member (Idle past 1927 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
And may also be positional; during one episode there will be deposition upstream of a damming event with minor erosion down stream followed by major erosion down stream after the dam bursts.
All kinds of complications. For instance, along Clear Creek out of Denver there are hanging gravels on the canyon walls from when the stream was up there. I understand that some in the area have placer gold. But your point is that streams are complex and often very old. It's kind of hard to discuss in a message board forum.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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edge writes: But your point is that streams are complex and often very old. It's kind of hard to discuss in a message board forum. And the additional point that changes do leave evidence and as you point out above, from that evidence supported conclusions can be formed. How the Grand Canyon formed and the Colorado Plateau was formed and raised is not simply assumptions, not simply interpretations but rather conclusions based on an overwhelming body of disparate evidence from a variety of sciences that all support the same explanation.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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This sort of claim needs to be supported since I have no idea WHAT "evidence" you are talking about. I have no problem explaining the Grand Canyon by the Flood and don't see why anyone else would. You have no problem 'explaining' things because you don't know enough about the evidence to know what is wrong with your explanations. You never make any attempt to vet your own explanations by checking whether they explain all that can be seen. Glen, unfortunately for his own psyche, was confronted with the evidence because of his work, and his education. Glen was not free to label stuff he did not like as illusion as you do. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1665 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The context is getting lost here, as so often happens. Exactly how the meander was cut is less important than the fact that it wasn't cut by the rushing water of the receding Flood as PaulK assumed I meant. That first great volume of water would have cut down through strata and carved out the canyon. It should have been a huge amount of water that also cut the Grand Staircase and scoured off the Kaibab plateau as it got down to the level of the current rim of the canyon, also the other flat areas around the csnyon. It was on such a flat plateau that the meander formed, from water left over from the receding Flood but settled down to a river running across a plateau. This is AFTER the cataracts that would have cut the canyon proper.
Those still look like water level lines on the walls of the meander to me, similar to lines on the walls of a reservoir in a drought. But who cares, it's not the important thing. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1665 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Glenn seems to have accepted way too much OE theory.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1665 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I realized I have more to say about your charming post.
You ASSUME Glenn was reading the evidence accurately; you ASSUME his judgment was the most reasonable judgment possible. On the basis of your ASSUMPTION you criticize me for NOT agreeing with your assumptions. All you are saying is that he's right, and somehow you know he's right and that makes me wrong, and since I am a YEC I have no rignt to have an opinion about his judgments. When he talks of the Grand Canyon as taking a long time to form he's simply fallen for the OE explanation. What EVIDENCE told him it took a long time to form? There is no reason at all to think it took such a long time and every reason to recognize that the Flood is enough to account for a rapid carving of the canyon. I judge your opinions as incompetent.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1665 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Uh, just where did anyone "concede it's findable by YEC methods"? Rather, what I've been seeing them say is that a YEC who follows standard geological practice would be able to find oil. Nothing about YEC methods being useful in that endeavor. Relative dating isn't standard geological practice for finding oil. And knowing the lay of the buried rocks ought to be a no-brainer whatever your theory. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2353 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Exactly. Being YEC won't help you find oil.
while operating under a YEC paradigm" does not seem to mean applying YEC assumptions, but simply not worrying about how old stuff was while searching for oil, and while continuing to believe the earth was young. It does not seem to mean that assuming a young earth was the least bit helpful in finding oil.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6062 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6
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DWise1 writes:
Relative dating isn't standard geological practice for finding oil. And knowing the lay of the buried rocks ought to be a no-brainer whatever your theory. Uh, just where did anyone "concede it's findable by YEC methods"? Rather, what I've been seeing them say is that a YEC who follows standard geological practice would be able to find oil. Nothing about YEC methods being useful in that endeavor. Excuse me, but you just completely avoided the issues. And you lifted my statement out of context in typical deliberately lying creationist fashion. Is this your admission that you are deliberately lying? Let us leave that dilemma for a moment. The entire question of what I had said concerned whether YEC methods were usable. Well, are they? Nothing in your "reply" says anything one way or the other. I stated that "a YEC who follows standard geological practice would be able to find oil." And that there is " Nothing about YEC methods being useful in that endeavor." You say, "Relative dating isn't standard geological practice for finding oil." And yet that is exactly what the other members you want to claim as supporting your position are saying. So you claim what they say as supporting your position while at the same time denying that everything and anything they say has nothing to do with finding oil. So then which is it???? Is it A or is it B? You are trying to claim both. So then how does that not constitute lying on your part?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17893 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2
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Redundant message hidden. --Admin
Duplicate post due to server issues
quote: when you say that the Grand Canyon was cut by water from the Flood I would assume that you meant pretty much all of it. Apparently you don't but you are being very unclear about what you do mean. Let us make it clear again. The Grand Canyon itself meanders - it has curves in it, like a river course. Are you singling out those sections and saying that they were cut by the river ? If so, why couldn't the river have cut the whole thing ?
quote: So, apparently the Grand Canyon we see today was carved by the river ? And the "canyon proper" is something else ? I keep asking you to explain what you mean by the "canyon proper" and you keep refusing to explain. Do you even know what you mean ? Edited by PaulK, : No reason given. Edited by Admin, : Hide content.
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