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Author Topic:   Does fractional reserve banking lead to a cycle of perpetual debt?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 56 (789856)
08-21-2016 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Riggamortis
08-20-2016 11:16 PM


Hold On! The Globalists Want Your Money!
Actually I think that it is true to some extent. We have had arguments here at EvC before about this. The Giant Pool Of Money I basically argued that the emerging Third World is grabbing the "share" of the buying power that was always a birthright of the United States. Jar saw no problem with that, but to me it is a war issue.
Over the years I have argued in favor of Gold and Silver but was always shot down.
These investments are no guarantee of future security--what good does it do in a depression to be the only guy on the block with gold stashed away when everybody else has guns? They are useful in a crash, however, as counter-cyclical investments. They will hold their value in the event of a major correction.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Riggamortis, posted 08-20-2016 11:16 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Riggamortis, posted 08-21-2016 5:14 AM Phat has replied
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 08-21-2016 2:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 6 of 56 (789883)
08-21-2016 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Riggamortis
08-21-2016 5:14 AM


Re: Hold On! The Globalists Want Your Money!
Well I hope more Americans agree with Jar than you mate. The poorest nations in the world are getting a little wealthier and you, with the biggest economy on earth, want to attack them for it? Seriously? WTF?
I never said i wanted to attack anyone. What I fear, however, is that the leveling of the playing field will mean a drastic decline in the standard of living of many middle class older Americans who once survived on social security and twenty thousand dollars stashed...whereas now it seems less and less probable.
So it's the governments fault for caving to the whims of multinationals really.
I blame the wealthy. They have no problem with everyone in the working class owing them money forever. It is a steady source of income for them.
Direct your anger there, not at helpless poor people, please for the love of God.
I don't blame the global poor for wanting to move up. It is good that the overall global standard of living is increasing---but realistically I don't see it working so far that everyone on earth earns a livable wage.
As for God, I believe that prayer and humility will help keep people such as myself from wanting a war. Perhaps this is how the future is meant to be.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Riggamortis, posted 08-21-2016 5:14 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Riggamortis, posted 08-22-2016 1:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 7 of 56 (789884)
08-21-2016 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
08-21-2016 2:29 PM


Re: Hold On! The Globalists Want Your Money!
ringo writes:
I read somewhere that in a post-apocalyptic world the three most important things to have would be a bicycle, canned sardines and gold coins. Presumably, you could use the gold coins to buy more sardines from somebody who valued them less than gold.
If there were food shortages, the gold wouldn't work very well. Hopefully there would still be sardines to catch.
Assuming the water didn't turn to blood or some other such horrible apocalyptic scenario.
The bicycle would be great. Hopefully no one would try and knock me off of it and steal it. Much of the question of survival in such a scenario hinges on the inner Spirit of the people. Would they want to help each other or would they want to tear each other apart?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 08-21-2016 2:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 08-22-2016 11:37 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 13 of 56 (790051)
08-24-2016 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
08-22-2016 11:37 AM


The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
The dollar's 70-year dominance is coming to an end
Within a decade, greenback's could be replaced as the world's reserve currency
This will mean major problems with our economy and rate of inflation. I dont see how so many people overlook this!
Bretton Woods was US-dominated and produced a settlement largely on US terms.
Seventy years ago this week, that fateful summit ended. Its close marked the moment the dollar’s unquestionable supremacy was secured. Since then, global commerce has been conducted largely in dollars and leading economies have held the greenback as their primary reserve currency.
The same system remains intact today, with the lion’s share of commercial settlements worldwide still clearing the US banking system — even if the parties involved have nothing to do with the States.
The dollar’s hegemony continues to be cemented, meanwhile, by the operations of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank.
The advantages this system bestows on the US are enormous. Reserve currency status generates huge demand for dollars from governments and companies around the world, as they’re needed for reserves and trade. This has allowed successive American administrations to spend far more, year-in year-out, than is raised in tax and export revenue.
Let there be no illusions! Once the dollar ceases to be King, we Americans will pay a lot more!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 08-22-2016 11:37 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by frako, posted 08-24-2016 3:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 4:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 16 of 56 (790063)
08-24-2016 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
08-24-2016 4:36 PM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
quote:
A reserve currency (or anchor currency) is a currency that is held in significant quantities by governments and institutions as part of their foreign exchange reserves. The reserve currency is commonly used in international transactions and often considered a hard currency or safe-haven currency.
So whats your point?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 4:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 6:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 18 of 56 (790071)
08-24-2016 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
08-24-2016 6:06 PM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
I mean what is your point aside from asking me if I understood the term? I had to look it up---I have always been told that it will be a crises, (If we are no longer the dominant reserve currency) and what I have read seems to confirm that " People who live in a country that issues a reserve currency can purchase imports and borrow across borders more cheaply than people in other nations because they don't need to exchange their currency to do so." also that " the world's need for dollars has allowed the United States government as well as Americans to borrow at lower costs, granting them an advantage in excess of $100 billion per year.[2] However, the U.S. dollar's status as a reserve currency, by increasing in value, hurts U.S. exporters.[3]"
The article mentions that there are several "reserve" currencies, though the dollar makes up over 2/3 of the mix.
The article also says
The top reserve currency is generally selected by the banking community for the strength and stability of the economy in which it is used. Thus, as a currency becomes less stable, or its economy becomes less dominant, bankers may over time abandon it for a currency issued by a larger or more stable economy. This can take a relatively long time, as recognition is important in determining a reserve currency. For example, it took many years after the United States overtook the United Kingdom as the world's largest economy before the dollar overtook the pound sterling as the dominant global reserve currency.[18]
Finally,
The United States dollar is the most widely held currency in the Allocated Reserves today. Throughout the last decade, an average of two thirds of the total Allocated foreign exchange reserves of countries have been in US dollars. For this reason, the US dollar is said to have "reserve-currency status", making it somewhat easier for the United States to run higher trade deficits with greatly postponed economic impact or even postponing a currency crisis. Central bank reserves held in dollar-denominated debt, however, are small compared to private holdings of such debt. In the event that non-United States holders of dollar-denominated assets decided to shift holdings to assets denominated in other currencies, there could be serious consequences for the US economy.
I don't know why you always make me look stuff up! Your socratic dialogue style of asking questions can at times be annoying!
add by edit:
at the beginning of the 21st century, gold and crude oil were still priced in dollars, which helps export inflation and has brought complaints about OPEC's policies of managing oil quotas to maintain dollar price stability.[52]
And this is our right! If we dont export inflation it will become our exclusive problem.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 6:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 7:25 PM Phat has replied
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2016 7:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 21 by Riggamortis, posted 08-24-2016 10:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 23 of 56 (790077)
08-24-2016 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
08-24-2016 7:25 PM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
And there you say it all; that for some reason you think you should be entitled to yet another advantage.
All I'm saying is that the reserve currency status is one of the last effects of the aberration period after WWII. I dont deny that it has been advantageous. What I fear is that once we step off of that artificial construct it will mean a major decrease in the standard of living and buying power for many middle class/working class Americans. Im all for doing it gradually over several decades.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 08-24-2016 7:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 1:22 AM Phat has replied
 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-25-2016 8:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 26 of 56 (790089)
08-25-2016 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Riggamortis
08-25-2016 1:22 AM


How Far Would You Go In Not Caring?
I honestly don't give a flying fuck if a few westerners miss out on their daily latte if it means the impoverished get a daily meal.
How far would you go in not caring, however? What if more than a few Westerners had their retirement savings cut in half? What if the effect was not a latte but a LOT,eh? Like say twenty five-fifty thousand dollars per household?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 1:22 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 5:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 27 of 56 (790092)
08-25-2016 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
08-25-2016 8:46 AM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
When the last vestiges of the aberration ends we almost certainly will get hurt but there is no one to blame for any pain except Americans and America.
Im still questioning whether or not there is some way to avoid the pain.
There are two steps you can take. First try to address the topics instead of whining about Phat.
I am well aware that I need to tough it out.
Second prepare yourself for the coming effects.
I am also planning for the inevitable.
Stop hoping some outside force will do it for you.
He will have to do it for us eventually. We are charged to try, but we will fail. Your pride will have to be laid at His feet.
And what does all of this have to do with fractional reserve banking? The fact that money too will fail at some future point.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 08-25-2016 8:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 08-25-2016 9:21 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 29 of 56 (790096)
08-25-2016 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
08-25-2016 9:21 AM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
I believe so, yes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 08-25-2016 9:21 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 38 of 56 (790187)
08-27-2016 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Riggamortis
08-26-2016 11:46 PM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
In other words, who will pay the interest in the meantime? It's not just hunger in the third world either, coal/oil vs renewable, the banks decide who to lend to.
I suppose the only counter-argument I can come up with--and not that I agree with it--is that how can we change the banking system? By necessity it operates the way it does...it has to make money. Helping the third world is quite simply not profitable. Profit drives the machine.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Riggamortis, posted 08-26-2016 11:46 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Riggamortis, posted 08-27-2016 1:01 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 43 of 56 (790231)
08-28-2016 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Riggamortis
08-28-2016 1:11 AM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
The only problem I see here is that the pay rate for the First World worker sent to the Third World would likely not be enough to cover First World expenses. People may gladly work for 1x per hour in the third world whereas in the first world it takes 15x an hour to maintain minimum cost of living.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Riggamortis, posted 08-28-2016 1:11 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Riggamortis, posted 08-28-2016 6:45 AM Phat has replied
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 08-29-2016 11:13 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 45 of 56 (790254)
08-28-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Riggamortis
08-28-2016 6:45 AM


Remaking The Federal Reserve
We are literally creating money for its true purpose in this scenario, to realise human potential.
Your idea sounds plausible. Isn't it true though that now as it stands only the Federal Reserve is authorized to create money? Perhaps a question: How Easy Would It Be To Overhaul The Federal Reserve?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Riggamortis, posted 08-28-2016 6:45 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Riggamortis, posted 08-28-2016 10:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 48 of 56 (790347)
08-29-2016 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
08-29-2016 11:13 AM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
You replied to me by mistake, but I will comment.
Why not just blame capitalism in general?
Or why not blame human nature? Greed?
We have talked about changing the Federal Reserve.
They dont want politics involved, and seem to think the fed as it now stands is not political ...apart from being loyal to the banks and bankers themselves.
Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Clinton said she would support changes to the top ranks of the Federal Reserve, an issue recently championed by progressive groups amid debate over how long the central bank should keep supporting the American economy.(...)"The Federal Reserve is a vital institution for our economy and the well-being of our middle class, and the American people should have no doubt that the Fed is serving the public interest, spokesman Jesse Ferguson said. That's why Secretary Clinton believes that the Fed needs to be more representative of America as a whole and that commonsense reforms like getting bankers off the boards of regional Federal Reserve banks are long overdue.
Seems the Fed is nearly sacrosanct.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 08-29-2016 11:13 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Riggamortis, posted 08-30-2016 12:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 55 of 56 (790614)
09-01-2016 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Riggamortis
08-31-2016 10:16 PM


Re: The End Of The Dollar Means Crises In US
Our collective debt can never be repaid without crashing the economy.
Im not sure I understand this. Is our collective debt bigger than the value we have generated throughout time? In other words, do we owe each other more than we've given each other?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Riggamortis, posted 08-31-2016 10:16 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Riggamortis, posted 09-01-2016 9:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
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