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Author Topic:   Faith vs Science
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 126 of 186 (788978)
08-08-2016 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Tangle
08-08-2016 5:26 PM


Re: Faith in common.
Tangle writes:
our real lives overlap perfectly because we're made of the same biological stuff and have been brought up by similar societies with similar values.
GDR writes:
Do you believe that or don’t you?
Tangle writes:
Of course I 'believe' that. In exactly the same way I 'believe' that i'm typing this on an iPad. ie I'm not using the word in the same way you do when you say you believe in a Resurrected Christ or my cleaner says she believes in dowsing. Please, please make the distinction.
I agree that you can know that we are products of our cultures, that is obvious. However, we can't absolutely rule out the possibility, no matter how remote you view the possibility, that we are influenced by some entity outside our physical world. I would agree though that the belief that you refer to is not the same as my belief in a resurrected Christ. Cultural influences are observed in our every day life, resurrection not so much.
Tangle writes:
Nearly. I can't rule out a non-interventionist god - that's purely rational. As is my view that the evidence is overwhelmingly against there actually being one. But I'm also an atheist which means I don't believe that there is one; that's "believe" in your sense.
That is pretty much the point I have been trying to make all along. It does seem to me that you shouldn't be able to absolutely rule out an interventionist god either but that's kinda splitting hairs.
Tangle writes:
You're dissembling. You know that had you been born in a village in the Atlas mountains you would be a Muslim. [ABE: and so would I] At least be honest.
I was being honest. I only indicated that it is possible. I have a friend who grew up in a strongly Muslim family, in strongly Muslim country and converted to Christianity while still living in that country. His family has disowned him. However, I do agree that he is the rare exception and your point is nearly always true.
That doesn't on its own however make my beliefs, or a Muslim's beliefs wrong. For that matter, you aren't likely to get two Christians who have thought seriously about their faith to agree on everything either. There's a tiny bit of a gap between Faith and myself.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2016 5:26 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Stile, posted 08-09-2016 8:34 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 129 of 186 (789008)
08-09-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Tangle
08-09-2016 9:06 AM


Re: Faith in common.
Tangle writes:
Come off it! If that was the point you were trying to make, I wouldn't be diagreeing with you would I? The disagreement was that a beliver's faith is the equivalent of 'faith' in science. Or in your example, a belief in the Loch Ness monster is the same as a 'belief' in V=I*R.
I wasn't comparing belief in the Loch Ness monster to belief in V=I*R. I was actually comparing it to my Christian faith. Here is what I said.
quote:
I suppose some people believe in the Loch Ness Monster. I believe that they are wrong. I believe in God. You believe I'm wrong. Neither of us can know that we are right. They are simply our beliefs.
I was never trying to compare my Christian faith to faith in science. Actually I have faith in science to the degree that it has discovered a great deal of what goes on in the world. My argument was when you and others say that if something can't be discovered scientifically it doesn't exist. For example again I'll take evolution. I have faith that science has done a good job of showing how life has evolved. The question then is whether or not the root cause is intelligent or not. Science doesn't answer that as it can only discover what happened and even how it happened.
Here is what I said in my original post in this thread.
quote:
The point I make is that science tells us that there was a point at which T=0. As I understand the entire universe quickly became a mass of mindless and likely dimensionless particles, or something like that. (Cut me some slack as I'm no scientist. ) Fast forward to today and we have sentient, emotional beings, with an understanding of morality, who are able to discern physical and mathematical patterns in the universe.
I look at that and conclude and have faith in the idea that there is something more that is the reason that things are the way they are, and that the "something more" is intelligent and rational. You disagree and conclude and have faith in the idea that there is nothing more, and that we are simply the result of the processes that made us what we are.
Tangle writes:
Technically, we can't rule out anything, but practically we can and do. In fact we have to to get anything done. We reach a standard of proof and accept that position until there's a demonstrable reason not to.
I agree with that.
Tangle writes:
But an uninvolved god is undetectable so can't be ruled out.
An involved god though, must, by definition, be actively interfering with reality. In most believer's views their God does this routinely and frequently. If that was actually the case we'd be able to detect it. We have never been able to do so and when claims have been made of physical supernatural interventions they've been found to be false or fraud.
I have no evidence for and have never witnessed something beyond the natural. I have experienced things in my life that I believe were outside of of natural life experiences but I have no evidence that I can give to substantiate the point. Our thoughts come from all sorts of natural sources and we don't always know from where. I do believe that there is that "still small voice" that touches our hearts and minds. If that is true then I suppose that would be a miracle.
Tangle writes:
This is your rabbit in the Cambrian, one single non-controversial supernatural event would prove your case. You haven't got one.
Well I would suggest just the fact that we exist.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2016 9:06 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2016 1:06 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 134 of 186 (789019)
08-09-2016 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Tangle
08-09-2016 1:06 PM


Re: Faith in common.
Tangle writes:
That's not the comparison I'm complaining about. You keep claiming that an atheist has the same sort of faith in science as you have in God - s/he doesn't.
Not really. I'm suggesting that there are those that use science as a method of disproving the existence not of a specific "God" but of the idea that there is a prime mover(s) that is responsible for the fact that we exist.
I have faith in science and the scientific method.
Tangle writes:
Do'h....hardly non-controversial....Given that supernatural events are routine for your belief, you'd think that just one of them might be available. As for voices in your head....well, least said about that the better.
Well, I still suggest that the fact we exist is pretty miraculous. I also believe that the resurrection was an actual historical event but the evidence for that is in the accounts of the early Jesus followers and we can either accept those accounts or reject them.
The use of the "still small voice" is obviously a metaphor and not meant to be a literal voice. Maybe another word would be our conscience.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2016 1:06 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by edge, posted 08-09-2016 3:02 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 138 of 186 (789029)
08-09-2016 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by edge
08-09-2016 3:02 PM


Re: Faith in common.
Edge writes:
To me it sounds like you are dancing. Who is the 'prime mover'? Surely you have a theory.
Sure, I'm Christian, but that isn't the point of the discussion.
edge writes:
If your complaint is that some use science as weapon against your religion, maybe that is true, but in general, it is the science itself that most of us are discussing. Chemicals kill a lot of people but we don't blame chemistry.
The shoe is probably more on the other foot that some use religion to argue with science. As far as my faith is concerned there is no conflict. My concern is, and I'll use evolution as an example. is that there are those that conclude from the fact that as we can see how evolution works naturally we have done away with any notion that there was an intelligence that is responsible for the process, whether or not that intelligence intervenes in the process.
edge writes:
I do not.
I accept it as the best explanation for the way things are.
That is a better way of putting it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by edge, posted 08-09-2016 3:02 PM edge has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 144 of 186 (789233)
08-11-2016 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
08-11-2016 8:36 PM


Re: Faith in common.
Phat writes:
The Goat Herders were not so vain as to rely on their own imagination nor intelligence. By Faith they knew God.
First off I just want to say thanks for your contributions to this site and the admin work you do.
Just a thought on your post. Isn't there a difference between knowing God and knowing the details of how He brought us into existence. For that matter isn't there a difference between knowing that God is good and loving and knowing in detail what the future holds in store.
As I've said to Faith a number of times, the faith is Christianity not Biblianity. Too often, IMHO, the church has made a false idol out of the Bible. The Bible is the "word" of God. Jesus is the "Word" of God. Read through the first chap. of the Gospel of John.
The Bible is a collection of books as you well know. We have to read different authors within the context of the world they lived in and know that we cam learn from the times the get it right as well as the times they got it wrong. Although many try, you can't square the loving forgiving God we see in Jesus to the vengeful God that is sometimes portrayed in the OT. It can't be done. That does not mean that we can't find the loving God in the pages of the OT as well. If we take the Bible as inerrant we wind up with a god that calls us to love our neighbour and our enemy, but sometimes wants us to slaughter them, men women and children. Does that make sense to you?
Just a thought.
AbE P.S. Your link didn't work.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 08-11-2016 8:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2016 4:46 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 08-14-2016 3:30 PM GDR has not replied

  
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