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Author | Topic: A Bronze Standard | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
quote: Egyptian and Levantine historians date the start of the Bronze Age later than the 3300 date scientists will accept as latest.Here is a link with a chart that has the archaeological dates with the "Min. accepted" column and then "Calibrated 14C" dates. Notice that the generally accepted date for the start of the Early Bronze Age is 3300 but the carbon dates have it at 4800-4100 BCE. It is actually taken as starting later by many Egyptologists. The Great Dating Problem, Part I - Improving the Egyptian Chronology | Ian Onvlee - Academia.edu
quote: Then for part 2
quote: Jar is not correct about a flood 1000 years earlier being in the Bronze Age, if one is going to use Egyptian dates as his guide. It would be more like 3200 to 3000 BCE for the start of the Bronze Age according to them. Egyptian historians reject the current scientific dating methods, because they feel is is contrary to their astronomical calculations, and other historical records. The conflict actually gives YECs something to use to argue against the radiometric dating methods. (my last post for sure)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If you accept a date in the 4300-4500 range, why are you concerned with rocks and geological strata? Those are all far older. Are you really unable to figure out the answer to this, meaning you're so stubbornly glued to the OE system you can't think outside the box, or are you simply insisting on it even knowing the answer? The answer of course is that I don't believe they are older, I reject the dating systems you use. I don't accept anything that contradicts the Bible.
When no evidence for a global flood is found in soils which date around 4300 years ago, you and many other creationists look to rock layers dated many million to hundreds of millions of years ago. What? If I don't agree that those rocks are that old then I'm not switching my position in the slightest, and it's you who are simply imposing your false dates on me. The "no evidence" in the soils YOU date to the time WE believe the Flood occurred, is based on YOUR preconception that I reject. You miss the real evidence for the Flood because you are glued to your own paradigm. You really should at least acknowledge the position of your opponents even if you don't agree with it, instead of dogmatically pronouncing yours correct.
You may think you are sticking to the 4300-4500 date range but your claims for a global flood rely on geological strata that are millions of years old. Well, there it is, your belief being treated as reality to disqualify mine. This is some kind of fallacy in a debate but I don't know what to call it. A form of begging the question perhaps. You pronounce those strata to be millions of years old without the slightest recognition that creationists have good reason to reject your dates. I AM sticking to the date range I gave because I do NOT recognize YOUR system of dating. What YOU think is millions of years old is simply NOT, it's only a few thousand years old. It doesn't matter if you personally believe this, in order to argue fairly you have to acknowledge it as a different view from yours. This is a case of ossified paradigm.
And in order to perform these mental gymnastics you must use the most tortured of rubber band years, compressing billions of years into a few thousand. There is nothing tortured about my view of these things, I simply, very simply, absolutely reject your dating system. I experience no cognitive strain whatever, perform no mental gymnastics, and I do not in any way change my view of when the Flood occurred. I have no reason to. Your billions of years are a fiction, it costs me nothing to laugh and ignore them.
Unfortunately for those claims, all the scientific evidence shows that they are incorrect, but as those claims are based on belief rather than evidence this seems to be of no consequence. This is the worst case of paradigm cramp I've ever seen. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
This is the worst case of paradigm cramp I've ever seen. Surely you must mean other than your own posts. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I am capable of recognizing the point of view of the opposition that I am disagreeing with; Coyote on the other hand can't seem to process the fact that creationists have a different view of the evidence than he does. To him the strata just ARE ABSOLUTELY hundreds of millions of years old, and he can't seem to recognize even the possibility that I really do see them as only thousands of years old.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Egyptian and Levantine historians date the start of the Bronze Age later than the 3300 date scientists will accept as latest. That level of detail does not matter. Are there historians that exclude the period between around 2500 to 2000 BC from the Bronze age for the relevant area of the world in which Noah would have lived? If not, then what is your point? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2324 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Coyote on the other hand can't seem to process the fact that creationists have a different view of the evidence than he does. To him the strata just ARE ABSOLUTELY hundreds of millions of years old, and he can't seem to recognize even the possibility that I really do see them as only thousands of years old. I am fully aware that creationists have a different view of the evidence than do scientists, and that you see those ancient layers as only a few thousand years old. But that view requires ignoring vast amounts of contradictory evidence, misrepresenting and misinterpreting the rest, and going on a massive scavenger hunt for anything that might possibly support your view--no matter how tenuous or contrary to the real-world evidence. Your posts claiming that every type of scientific dating is completely wrong (without any evidence that this is so), and your insistence that the bible has to be correct (in spite of evidence to the contrary) show this very clearly. In science and the real world, belief is not evidence!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I am capable of recognizing the point of view of the opposition that I am disagreeing with Sometimes you do, yes. But I can cite plenty of occasions where you misstate the scientific point of view that you disagree with. Sometimes you do manage to get on the right track, but not always.
Coyote on the other hand can't seem to process the fact that creationists have a different view of the evidence than he does. In fact the view you have on some of the evidence he cites is pure dismissal without rationale. For example, you have no interpretation of radiometric dating other than to proclaim such dating wrong. Not a matter of interpretation at all. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are missing the point. He doesn't even recognize in the middle of the argument that I HAVE an objection to conventional dating, THAT"s what Im talking about. It also doesn't matter if you think I get the opponents' view wrong, just being aware that there IS a point of view opposed to me is more than Coyote seems to be aware of. Getting my point of view WRONG would be an improvement.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: He doesn't even recognize in the middle of the argument that I HAVE an objection to conventional dating, THAT"s what Im talking about. We all understand that you do not believe conventional dating but you need to understand that unless you can present a strong enough case to convince the whole scientific community that the conventional dating is incorrect you have no argument. The problem is that not only would you have to overthrow ALL of the existing correlations involved in dating, all of physics and chemistry but also all of common sense. You need to explain how multiple lithification incidents can possibly happen within the time frame you propose. So that is your challenge; totally overthrow all of physics and chemistry as well as all common sense. Support your objection.My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm sorry, you've changed the subject. I made a completely different point and I'm leaving it there for now.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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just being aware that there IS a point of view opposed to me is more than Coyote seems to be aware of. Again, with respect to radiometric dating, you don't have any kind of interpretation. You simply say that dating is wrong. Coyote is certainly aware that you reject dating for non scientific reasons. His posts describe your belief accurately. So yes he is acknowledging your point of view. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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