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Author Topic:   The Geological Timescale is Fiction whose only reality is stacks of rock
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 136 of 1257 (788072)
07-25-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
07-25-2016 1:05 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Faith writes:
In the Cretaceous period as shown on the paleogeographic map of that period (in the textbook referred to), the Inland Seaway covered the middle section of the continent from the edge of the mountains of Nevada to the Great Lakes. This was part of the Zuni sequence that started in the late Jurassic and lasted for the entire Cretaceous period, some 79 million years. There is evidence of fluctuating shorelines of the seaway but the water was there for the entire Cretaceous period.
Are you using some Creationist textbook?
The Cretaceous period last over 100 million years and guess what? Once again the reality shows that you are simply wrong.
a map of the early Cretaceous from about 140 million years ago.
a map of the early Cretaceous from about 130 million years ago.
and about 115 million years ago
and about 100 million years ago.
and around 85 million years ago
as it was around 75 million years ago
and around the last we see of the dinosaurs
As you can see there were millions of years during the Cretaceous when there was land above water.
Once again reality says you are simply wrong.
Edited by jar, : fix one link

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 1:05 PM Faith has not replied

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 Message 137 by edge, posted 07-25-2016 2:37 PM jar has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 137 of 1257 (788074)
07-25-2016 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
07-25-2016 2:22 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Are you using some Creationist textbook?
The Cretaceous period last over 100 million years and guess what? Once again the reality shows that you are simply wrong.
a map of the early Cretaceous from about 140 million years ago.
a map of the early Cretaceous from about 130 million years ago.
and about 115 million years ago
and about 100 million years ago.
and around 85 million years ago
as it was around 75 million years ago
and around the last we see of the dinosaurs
As you can see there were millions of years during the Cretaceous when there was land above water.
Once again reality says you are simply wrong.
This is a very good point worth repeating as a quote.
It seems that Faith didn't confine her cherry-picking of data well enough this time. Virtually everything about the Cretaceous Seaway and the Dakota Sandstone proclaims the presence of land masses and, hence, landscapes and erosion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 07-25-2016 2:22 PM jar has not replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 1257 (788075)
07-25-2016 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by edge
07-25-2016 2:37 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
I hardly ever use Creationist sources and didn't use any for this post. I thought my sources were pretty clear. In any case I used Google and Wikipedia for much of it, including the time span of the Cretaceous period, and the Historical Geology textbook for the paleogeography information about the time period, and its maps referred to from an online source that PaulK found.
Here are a few online sources:
Here's the Google quote which was from Wikipedia saying it lasted 79 million years;
Google
And here's Wikipedia, also saying 79 million years.
I haven't located the site that said the shoreline fluctuated but that the water never completely went away. But here is the Wikipedia article I just found that also suggests that it was there for the entire time period:
During the early Paleocene, parts of the Western Interior Seaway (marine waters) still occupied areas of the Mississippi Embayment, submerging the site of present-day Memphis.
Here's a map showing the Dakota formation within the area of the seaway:
http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Current/2010/Ludvigson/gifs/fig1.gif
abe: Finally figured out the maps were posted by jar and checked them out. Not sure what the problem is. They show the seaway pretty much as the geology textbook does. I didn't say the water covered the entire continent if that's what you are implying. The maps and my sources just say that there was water in the area of the seaway for the whole Cretaceous period. The maps don't show anything different from that. If that's what you are saying please explain.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 137 by edge, posted 07-25-2016 2:37 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2016 3:57 PM Faith has replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 139 of 1257 (788076)
07-25-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
07-25-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
quote:
Here's a map showing the Dakota formation within the area of the seaway:
http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Current/2010/Ludvigson/gifs/fig1.gif
Looks like the Dakota formation shown is along the edge of the seaway. Very likely this is the coastal deposits mentioned by Wikipedia.
quote:
If there are links to your maps I'm unable to use them. Maybe after I post this I can.
Edge quoted jar's post and the links are there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 3:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 4:01 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 1257 (788077)
07-25-2016 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by PaulK
07-25-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
On the map in the textbook the seaway covers the whole area from the mountains on the west to the Great Lakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2016 3:57 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2016 4:11 PM Faith has replied
 Message 161 by edge, posted 07-26-2016 11:22 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 141 of 1257 (788078)
07-25-2016 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
07-25-2016 4:01 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
The seaway wasn't a constant size throughout its existence. If you want to use a map you really need to use the map that corresponds to the time that the rocks in question were being deposited. And of course the maps will be based on the geology, so if you think that the nap disagrees with the geology you are very likely wrong - and even if you are right, the geology overrules the map not vice-versa.
The information we have is that the Dakota formation includes terrestrial deposits and gas few dinosaur fossils. Now maybe you can show that some of those occurred in marine sediments but until you do you don't have the evidence you need. It's unpromising enough that I'd suggest looking at other formations - this list on Wikipedia ought to be useful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 4:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 10:12 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 142 of 1257 (788079)
07-25-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
07-25-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Faith writes:
abe: Finally figured out the maps were posted by jar and checked them out. Not sure what the problem is. They show the seaway pretty much as the geology textbook does. I didn't say the water covered the entire continent if that's what you are implying. The maps and my sources just say that there was water in the area of the seaway for the whole Cretaceous period. The maps don't show anything different from that. If that's what you are saying please explain.
I'll try to explain.
In the first map there is no inland sea.
In the second map there is no inland sea.
Now Faith, the span of time between just those two maps is at least 10 million years. That is at least 50 times longer than modern humans (the Homo clan) have existed.
Ten million years.
Ten million years is a far amount of time. It's not surprising that dinosaurs that died during that period might be found in layers that would indicate dry land.
If you then look at the next map you find there are shorelines in the area in question. But again, there is a period of 15 million years between the second and third map. During that 15 million years the inland sea gradually grew to the extent shown in the map. That means a period of 15 million years while the portion of the area under water increased. That leaves lots of time for the critters to adapt. No one needs to run from an inundation that takes 15 million years.
Between the third and fourth map is another period of 15 million years and once again there is still shorelines within the area being discussed. That makes at least 40 million years when there were still some land that was not inundated in the geographic area being discussed.
The fifth map shows the extent of the inland seaway, when the North American continent was split into two islands. Yet even there we can still see some shorelines in the area under discussion.
The sixth map and seventh map show the inland seaway retreating and disappearing and so by the time the dinosaurs died out the area was once again almost all dry land.
What the maps show is that there was no time during the Cretaceous that there was not some land that was not under water in the area under discussion.
What you call stacks of rocks can actually tell us quite a lot about the landscape, climate, animals, plants, temperature and other factors that existed at the time the feature was the surface of the earth.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin in---> is

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 138 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 3:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 143 of 1257 (788083)
07-25-2016 7:35 PM


Elephant in the room
The OP states that the Geological Timescale is a fiction, but the discussion seems to be bogged down in whether dinosaurs can live on rocks or not. Faith "knows" that the Earth is young so everything has to fit in with that. But the elephant in the room is the RM dating applied to the geological periods. Along with that, as RAZD so admirably showed in his thread, is the CORRELATIONS between different dating methods.
This is one of the unsolved questions admitted by GRI.
So Faith, forget about dinosaurs living on rocks and address the dating, because regardless of how the strata were formed, the dates remain. You could start by explaining the dates assigned to seamount chains, which provide strong support for the accuracy of RMD, or why the strata that were believed to be the oldest in the 19th century have the oldest RM dates.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 1257 (788085)
07-25-2016 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
07-25-2016 4:11 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
The seaway wasn't a constant size throughout its existence. If you want to use a map you really need to use the map that corresponds to the time that the rocks in question were being deposited.
...The information we have is that the Dakota formation includes terrestrial deposits and gas few dinosaur fossils. Now maybe you can show that some of those occurred in marine sediments but until you do you don't have the evidence you need.
I don't know exactly when Dinosaur Ridge at Golden, Colorado was deposited so that's a problem, but it appears to have been within the seaway for the whole 34 million years of the seaway's existence so it's a candidate for possibly having occurred in marine sediments. It has both Jurassic and Cretaceous dinosaur fossils.
Golden is a few miles west of Denver and appears to be within the seaway through all its shoreline changes on this map:
interior seaway interactive map
Worth a try I figure. If it doesn't work I keep looking.
Pollux: If I could prove what I'm trying to prove the dating issues would just evaporate.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2016 4:11 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by edge, posted 07-25-2016 10:29 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 146 by jar, posted 07-25-2016 11:00 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2016 12:27 AM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 145 of 1257 (788088)
07-25-2016 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
07-25-2016 10:12 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
I don't know exactly when Dinosaur Ridge at Golden, Colorado was deposited so that's a problem, but it appears to have been within the seaway for the whole 34 million years of the seaway's existence so it's a candidate for possibly having occurred in marine sediments. It has both Jurassic and Cretaceous dinosaur fossils.
Well, yes the Morrison Formation is Jurassic in age and is terrestrial. The Dakota directly overlies the Morrison and is peppered with dinosaur footprints.
So, how do you propose that footprints actually made it into the Dakota Sandstone?
I have an easy answer: It was a beach sand deposit with streams running across it and bringing sand down to the shoreline.
How about you?
quote:
Golden is a few miles west of Denver and appears to be within the seaway through all its shoreline changes on this map:
Yes, these rocks were right up against the Sevier orogenic belt so the shoreline, while rising, did not traverse across several states. Sea level just rose to cover a mountainous terrain, you know, a landscape. Check out my previously presented cross section.
But there are tracks. So, how did they get there under your scenario of offshore marine sediments?
This is only a few miles west of me.
(Page not found - Dinosaur Ridge)
And do you remember Walther's Law? Maybe you should review it again.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 10:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 146 of 1257 (788090)
07-25-2016 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
07-25-2016 10:12 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Faith writes:
I don't know exactly when Dinosaur Ridge at Golden, Colorado was deposited so that's a problem, but it appears to have been within the seaway for the whole 34 million years of the seaway's existence so it's a candidate for possibly having occurred in marine sediments.
Think Faith.
The seaway came and went in 34 million years. The Cretaceous lasted 75-80 million years. Dinosaurs were around for about 200 million years.
The inland sea was a very short lived incident and as you have been shown throughout the whole existence of the Cretaceous Inland Sea there was still shore land where dinosaurs could live.
The reality is that where the inland sea existed was dry land for millions of years before the sea existed and millions of years after the sea disappeared but still before the end of the dinosaurs. We are seeing at least 150 million years and more when the area in question was not under water and dinosaurs were around to live and die.
The evidence, the reality is that we are seeing irrefutable evidence that for millions of years the area in question was a working landscape wit lots of dry land.
While 150 million years is a fair amount of time, particularly since modern humans have only been around for about 200 thousand years, it is still just a small fraction of the history that exists in those stacks of rocks.
AbE:
One other important thing to remember. When what a book says is different than what the rocks say, believe the rocks. They do not lie.
Edited by jar, : over ---> about
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 10:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 147 of 1257 (788092)
07-26-2016 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
07-25-2016 10:12 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
quote:
I don't know exactly when Dinosaur Ridge at Golden, Colorado was deposited so that's a problem, but it appears to have been within the seaway for the whole 34 million years of the seaway's existence so it's a candidate for possibly having occurred in marine sediments. It has both Jurassic and Cretaceous dinosaur fossils.
Golden is a few miles west of Denver and appears to be within the seaway through all its shoreline changes on this map
The Jurassic fossils obviously won't have anything to do with a Cretaceous feature (and they are from the Morrison formation, a terrestrial deposit)
The seaway doesn't exist throughout the Cretaceous period either.
Looking at the description of the area I think that the Cretaceous deposits were on the coast of the seaway, possibly from a time before the start of the animation. Again, the geology must be primary and the formation is described as coastal.
And , given that terrestrial dinosaurs in marine beds would be an oddity it really ought to be fairly easy to find if it were true (small numbers relatively near the coast are certainly possible without imagining that the dinosaurs lived in the sea - bodies washed out to sea one way or another). If it isn't mentioned, it almost certainly is not the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 10:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-26-2016 4:11 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 1257 (788094)
07-26-2016 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
07-26-2016 12:27 AM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
The idea is that at some point a clear contradiction should be found between the depositional environment determined by the clues found in the rock strata, and the actual environment that is determined from shorelines and other clues to the six sequences of epeiric seas. Not because of any failure of the geologists but because the Flood would naturally contradict many of the supposed depositional environments. But I need to do a much better job of thinking it all through than I've done lately. Bad case of brain fog.
The idea that any dinosaurs "lived in the sea" is a misreading of what I'm saying. That's just a way of characterizing the natural result of the contradiction, that it implies such an impossibility. The impossibility is resolved by recognizing that the dinosaurs died in the Flood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2016 12:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2016 4:26 AM Faith has replied
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2016 11:22 AM Faith has replied
 Message 200 by saab93f, posted 07-26-2016 4:33 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 149 of 1257 (788095)
07-26-2016 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
07-26-2016 4:11 AM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
quote:
The idea is that at some point a clear contradiction should be found between the depositional environment determined by the clues found in the rock strata, and the actual environment that is determined from shorelines and other clues to the six sequences of epeiric seas.
That may be the idea, but so far you have not delivered. Nor do I see how you can hope to deliver without a detailed look at the geology. And I should note that the shorelines themselves are depositional environments.
quote:
The idea that any dinosaurs "lived in the sea" is a misreading of what I'm saying
I think it is simply a somewhat loose phrasing but basically accurate. What you mean is that mainstream geology would say both that dinosaurs were living in an area at a particular time and that the area was covered by the sea at that time. But again, you've not come up with even one clear example.
quote:
The impossibility is resolved by recognizing that the dinosaurs died in the Flood.
Of course, there are two problems with this. First the "impossibility" has not been shown to exist. Second, showing a serious problem with mainstream geology would do very little to save the idea of the Flood which still faces far more serious problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-26-2016 4:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 07-26-2016 4:38 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 1257 (788096)
07-26-2016 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
07-26-2016 4:26 AM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
But of course your faith is in OE geology, mine is in the Flood. I know I need better evidence, but I have faith that it's out there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2016 4:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2016 4:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 155 by Coyote, posted 07-26-2016 10:22 AM Faith has replied

  
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