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Author | Topic: PC Gone Too Far | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Percy writes:
Yes.
Saddam was committing evil in Iraq. Can I assume you were against intervention and against Canada joining the coalition? Percy writes:
I wouldn't have stopped him.
So how are you to stop him without violence? Percy writes:
I have said that I would fight to stop slavery. I would also fight to stop other instances of genocide, such as the Holocaust. There are no easy answers for when to fight and when not to. How would you have stopped Hitler without violence? But the point of this thread is not about whether to fight or not; it's about whether to memorialize both sides equally. I've been consistent on that: no memorials to the SS, no memorials to Confederates, no memorials to Saddam, no memorials to serial killers, etc.
Percy writes:
Your vaunted "objectivity" seems to have missed an important point: The North would have abolished slavery by non-violent means if it could. The South started the violence. Violence to support violence.
But we certainly can't have anything as "universally evil" as slavery going on, can we. You should mount your horse and invade India. Percy writes:
You support looking at history objectively. That suggests that there are possible circumstances under which slavery would be justifiable. I support objectivity, not slavery. That's like looking objectively at whether or not to feed your children.
Percy writes:
I think that's preferable to getting out your slide rule to decide whether or not to buy a slave.
You good/evil guys sound more and more like the religionists, but instead of "He's a good Christian" and "He's a bad Christian," you have "He's good" and "He's evil."
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
Neither you nor Percy has explained how objectivity is applicable. How do you objectively evaluate slavery? How do you objectively decide whether or not to exterminate the Jews? How can you eliminate empathy from those discussions?
That's why subectivity is not applicable.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
It isn't a discussion of whether it "should" be described as genocide. The fact is that it has been described as genocide. We don't have people vociferously denying that it was genocide. We're mostly past denial.
The discussion in Canada about whether or not treatment of the Aboriginals should be described as genocide is based around a discussion of how they were treated and why. bluegenes writes:
Quite possibly they were. What does that have to do with anything? Does that justify us committing genocide?
Do you think that the Aboriginal slave cultures were guilty of genocide?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
But they're not "bygone passions". Memorializing the slavers is an ongoing insult to the descendants of the slaves. Moving the insult to a less visible location doesn't "lose history". The memory is all too well preserved without the monument.
The key question is whether bygone passions or detachment should prevail in deciding the future of a very old monument. Percy writes:
That question is pretty good evidence that no objective answers are possible.
About your specific scenario, is it morally wrong to buy slaves if the intent is to free them?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
Of course we are. Percy values the historical value of the monument above the symbolism. I value it lower.
We are NOT attempting to evaluate slavery here. xongsmith writes:
No. It's because the individual soldiers are nameless that the monument is seen as symbolizing the Confederacy - and its salient feature, slavery.
The memorial is to the nameless dead soldiers, not to the institution of slavery.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
It's not an evil thing in and of itself. It's a monument to an evil thing. It's like a "tribute" to John Wayne Gacy. ... this memorial to the fallen Confederate soldiers is somehow being construed, by even folks here in EvC of all places, as an evil thing and therefore should be destroyed. I, for one, have not suggested destroying anything.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
Sez you. Reference, please.
Actually, you do have people denying it.... bluegenes writes:
The North didn't set out to destroy the Southern culture, only one aspect of it.
Well, you're the one who believes in justifiable "genocide". Because, for you, a culturecide is a genocide, and slavery is genocide, we come up with the "genocidal" Northerners destroying the slave owning "genocidal" Southern culture being a justifiable action because, as you put it, it isn't a crime to stop a crime. bluegenes writes:
I have not suggested destroying anything.
In Islam, Muslims are permitted to take non-Muslims as slaves. Some non-Muslims might, perfectly reasonably, claim to be offended and/or insulted by this ideology. However, that's no reason to destroy historic Mosques around the world. bluegenes writes:
YECs are not a culture.
BTW, do you think that modern scientific education is part of a culturecide (therefore genocide to you) of Young Earth Christians?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
So the definition of genocide isn't as cut and dried as you've been claiming it is. There is a controversy. There are people besides me who are saying that our treatment of the aboriginal people was (is) genocide. It's not on your government's list, and there's plenty of discussion about it, and you certainly do have people "vociferously denying that it was genocide" and people denying that there was a "cultural genocide", and debating what, if anything, "cultural genocide" is. Yes, we have people denying it. We also have people denying that they are racist. Denial isn't a very strong argument.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
They're a subculture, if you like. I have no problem with eliminating subcultures like the Mafia or the Manson family. If you put up a monument to Charles Manson, I wouldn't support destroying it but I'd support moving it.
ringo writes:
Why not? YECs are not a culture.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
"Whitewashing" would imply that we're trying to make something ugly look better. The opposite seems to be true.
We're whitewashing history.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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New Cat's Eye writes:
I'm buying it. There's a lot of denial and self-delusion involved but white Southerners are definitely trying to sweep real history under the rug in favor of something less painful and more "glorious".
There's a real horrific actual history that southerners are trying to hide with a fantasy... I'm not buying it, but the claim is there.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
What would constitute evidence of self-delusion?
Ok, that's a similar claim: So, where's the evidence?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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New Cat's Eye writes:
You tell me - what are you basing your conclusion on?quote:
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