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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 106 of 887 (786670)
06-24-2016 12:41 PM


The Rest
Sort of interesting side effects - the French and Spanish stock markets have fallen much further than the UK's.
Questions being raised about how strong the EU actually is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 06-24-2016 12:54 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 108 by Diomedes, posted 06-24-2016 12:56 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 111 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-25-2016 9:44 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 887 (786673)
06-24-2016 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
06-24-2016 12:41 PM


Re: The Rest
Tangle writes:
Sort of interesting side effects - the French and Spanish stock markets have fallen much further than the UK's.
Questions being raised about how strong the EU actually is.
When one of the lifeguards quits, those who are already drowning are bound to be worse off. Might be better for the lifeguard though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2016 12:41 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 108 of 887 (786674)
06-24-2016 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
06-24-2016 12:41 PM


Re: The Rest
Sort of interesting side effects - the French and Spanish stock markets have fallen much further than the UK's.
Questions being raised about how strong the EU actually is.
The contagion from this vote could be very dire for the EU. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that other parts of the EU are now going to question whether it makes sense to stay.
Take Greece for example. They have had copious problems financially. And although they called a vote before to stay, that was prior to the migrant crisis. My guess is that pendulum could swing the other way now. Spain has strong nationalistic elements as does France.
The problem now is the world and European members in particular are seeing the EU as the Angela Merkel show. It's almost like Germany won WWIII without firing a shot. Granted, that is an exaggeration, but it is still a sentiment.
I have to say by the way, Jean-Claude Juncker looks and sounds like an old Nazi. He was about as useful as a hemorrhoid in the build up to this vote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2016 12:41 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Big_Al35, posted 06-25-2016 12:48 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 109 of 887 (786686)
06-24-2016 3:45 PM


Tribalism
The EU has been an attempt to drop the artificial boundaries between various cultures. We are now reverting back to us and them, or basic tribalism instead of working co-operatively.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 06-25-2016 12:28 PM GDR has replied

  
Astrophile
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 92
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


Message 110 of 887 (786692)
06-24-2016 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Tangle
06-24-2016 2:12 AM


Likewise. This is a disaster. I dread to think what will happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2016 2:12 AM Tangle has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 111 of 887 (786703)
06-25-2016 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
06-24-2016 12:41 PM


Re: The Rest
quote:
Sort of interesting side effects - the French and Spanish stock markets have fallen much further than the UK's.
Questions being raised about how strong the EU actually is.
The E.U. is the largest trading partner of the United States, so we are hurt when the U.K. is too weak (due to currency or per capita income issues) to purchase goods.
That's an argument against nationalism and borders, not for it.
When both the U.K. and the USA are hurt, then the rest of the world suffers, especially the E.U. countries. It cuts all ways in a not so virtuous cycle. Witness the Great Depression.
The British have a national debt to GDP ratio of about 90% (the USA is about 75%), and that was based on an economy with immigration and a growing economy. Now that the U.K. seems to want to shrink its way out of its problems, then expect the debt to GDP ratio to get quite a ways worse. (as things get worse,the nationalists will point the finger elsewhere, of course)
If other E.U. countries follow suit - leave the E.U. - then a depression is guaranteed.
But expect all stock markets to be hurt. This is bad news.
The other E.U. countries aren't going to solve a thing by leaving the E.U. Remember that the common currency Euro issue is a totally different one from the European Union. Perhaps the countries can solve their problems by dumping the Euro and having their own currency, then they can devalue their own like 99% to "pay" their debts. That is a different issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2016 12:41 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 112 of 887 (786705)
06-25-2016 9:56 AM


Regrexit
There a huge amount of regret around atm. People saying that they didn't think it would actually happen and theirs was only a protest vote. Dickheads.
It turns out that 73% of 18-25 years olds voted remain but only 29% of them bothered to vote.
I suspect that if we had the vote again today, remain would win by a large majority.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 113 of 887 (786710)
06-25-2016 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by GDR
06-24-2016 3:45 PM


Re: Tribalism
GDR writes:
The EU has been an attempt to drop the artificial boundaries between various cultures.
Or... the EU was an attempt to put economics before democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 06-24-2016 3:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 06-25-2016 10:08 PM ringo has replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 114 of 887 (786712)
06-25-2016 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Diomedes
06-24-2016 12:56 PM


Re: The Rest
Diomedes writes:
Take Greece for example. They have had copious problems financially. And although they called a vote before to stay, that was prior to the migrant crisis. My guess is that pendulum could swing the other way now.
I was pro-EU for a long time and it has only been through painstaking research that I have become euro-sceptic. I am not sure that all the Greeks have the knowledge, the education or the will to find out about the real agenda. A faster way to be euro-sceptic but without the understanding would be to simply hate immigrants. You are suggesting that this faster approach would result in a real pendulum swing which may or may not be true. Alternatively, maybe people in the UK are more hateful. I would still like to believe it's thanks to a better understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Diomedes, posted 06-24-2016 12:56 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-25-2016 8:07 PM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 129 by Larni, posted 06-29-2016 9:24 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 115 of 887 (786720)
06-25-2016 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Big_Al35
06-25-2016 12:48 PM


Greeks are super duper aware of issues.
Remember that we destroyed their nation after World War 2, because their "communist" people actually had the audacity to defeat the Nazis.
The people overthrew our CIA installed right wing dictators in 1974, and became a democracy that hates the CIA and votes more often with our "enemies" (Russians, Palestinians, Africans etc.) in the UN.
Our state department used to classify Greece as part of the Middle East until recently.
The CIA propaganda against Greece is just unreal. Greeks understand most of it, but they don't have a clue about the lies the CIA spreads among American blacks. All sorts of "Cleopatra was black" conspiracy theories are very very strong in every single state in the USA.
Greeks aren't ignorant of the E.U. or anything. They can read the New Testament in its original language too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Big_Al35, posted 06-25-2016 12:48 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 116 of 887 (786723)
06-25-2016 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
06-25-2016 12:28 PM


Re: Tribalism
ringo writes:
Or... the EU was an attempt to put economics before democracy.
Maybe, but a strong economy means that people have jobs. As an aside, where democracy is concerned, it seems that most elections nowadays seems to see the majority having to vote for the candidate they dislike the least.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 06-25-2016 12:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-26-2016 2:48 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 117 of 887 (786746)
06-26-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by GDR
06-25-2016 10:08 PM


Re: Tribalism
GDR writes:
Maybe, but a strong economy means that people have jobs.
People had jobs before governments became obsessed with tweaking the economy. You must be old enough to remember when we had things like flag debates.
GDR writes:
... it seems that most elections nowadays seems to see the majority having to vote for the candidate they dislike the least.
I don't think that's true of the recent (Canadian) Federal election, or the Saskatchewan provincial election.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 06-25-2016 10:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 06-27-2016 2:23 AM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 118 of 887 (786769)
06-27-2016 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
06-26-2016 2:48 PM


Re: Tribalism
ringo writes:
I don't think that's true of the recent (Canadian) Federal election, or the Saskatchewan provincial election.
Certainly Brad Wall is well liked. However federally I don't think that the Canadian public were as enamoured with Trudeau as they were fed up with the Conservative negative campaign.
I do think that people are feeling more and more disconnected from government which certainly fed into what happened in Britain and what continues to happen south of us.
The point is though, that instead of working co-operatively with our neighbours we are putting up walls. Trump even goes beyond the metaphor.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-26-2016 2:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 12:18 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 887 (786792)
06-27-2016 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by GDR
06-27-2016 2:23 AM


Re: Tribalism
GDR writes:
The point is though, that instead of working co-operatively with our neighbours we are putting up walls.
That's ironic, considering the fences that the EU nations are putting up to keep out refugees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 06-27-2016 2:23 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by caffeine, posted 06-27-2016 1:04 PM ringo has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 120 of 887 (786796)
06-27-2016 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
06-27-2016 12:18 PM


Re: Tribalism
That's ironic, considering the fences that the EU nations are putting up to keep out refugees.
But none of these are being put up by the EU as a collective institution, but by individual member states. One of the things that I think drove the Brexit vote was opposition to the EU commission's failed attempts to get member-states to accept refugees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 12:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 1:14 PM caffeine has replied

  
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