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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 1163 (786432)
06-21-2016 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by edge
06-21-2016 6:26 PM


Re: Limestones, trilobites and so-called faunal succession.
Hundreds of miles is still close enough to account for the upended strata as a result of the tectonic forces that accompanied the volcanic action at the end of the Flood, and the point I was making was that those forces did not occur at the point in the laying down of the strata that is said to be when Pangaea broke up but after all were in place which is evident from the cross secttion. The volcanic action described in Dr. A's quote as occurring at the point of the rifting, is of a huge enough magnitude to explain effects hundreds of miles away, not to mention that rifting was going on all over the world at the same time, with attendant volcanism and tectonic joltings. I believe this one event with all its cataclysmic effects accounts for ALL the disturbances we see in the strata everywhere, all the twisted strata, all the mountains etc.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 134 by edge, posted 06-21-2016 6:26 PM edge has replied

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 137 of 1163 (786433)
06-21-2016 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
06-21-2016 5:34 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Your evidence for faunal succession is nothing but the imaginative assessment of plausibility, it is NOT real evidence.
So, the observation that there were no dinosaur fossils in the Devonian System, then they flourished in the Mesozoic, and then gone again by the Paleogene is just a mirage?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 5:34 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 138 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 6:40 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 1163 (786434)
06-21-2016 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by edge
06-21-2016 6:36 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Their existence is not a mirage, but the interpreted timing is a mirage.

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 Message 137 by edge, posted 06-21-2016 6:36 PM edge has not replied

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 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 6:51 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 139 of 1163 (786435)
06-21-2016 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
06-21-2016 6:40 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
And everyone would know that the timing was a mirage if God hadn't done magic to arrange all the absolute dates produced by radiometric methods to agree with the relative dating produced by paleontological methods. Perhaps next time you pray you could ask him to stop lying to geologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 6:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by edge, posted 06-21-2016 6:57 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 10:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 140 of 1163 (786436)
06-21-2016 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
06-21-2016 6:36 PM


Re: Limestones, trilobites and so-called faunal succession.
Hundreds of miles is still close enough to account for the unpended strata as a result of the tectonic forces that accompanied the volcanic action at the end of the Flood, ...
But that upending occurred before the Chalk. And, in fact, the parting of the North American and Eurasian plates occurred well after the Chalk.
and the point I was making was that those forces did not occur at the point in the laying down of the strata that is said to be when Pangaea broke up. The volcanic action described in Dr. A's quote as occurring at the point of the rifting, is of a huge enough magnitude to explain effects hundreds of miles away, ...
What effects are you talking about. All we see is uniformly, gently dipping beds. Where are the folds, the volcanoes, the igneous plutons that we see in orogenic belts?
... not to mention that rifting was going on all over the world at the same time, ...
Not really. There was convergence elsewhere, subduction, volcanism and accretion.
There had to be. You don't just move plates around without consequences.
quote:
.. with attendant volcanism and tectonic joltings.
Divergent boundaries generally have isolated effect, because, face it, these are extensional environments and rocks simply do not have the strength to transmit stresses. This was a passive margin where limestones and other continental shelf environment would form after a brief bout with volcanism. From that time on it's continental shelf sedimentation that gives us biological environment such as the Bahamas Banks or the Great Barrier Reef. These are future limestones, whether you allow it or not.
I believe this one event with all its cataclysmic effects accounts for ALL the disturbances we see in the strata everywhere.
Not even possible. We see disturbances throughout the geological record, from the Archean on, including today. This drives evolution and the superposition of various environments that show faunal succession. It may contribute to sudden radiation of some taxa and to the extinction of others.

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 Message 136 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 6:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 141 of 1163 (786437)
06-21-2016 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2016 6:51 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
And everyone would know that the timing was a mirage if God hadn't done magic to arrange all the absolute dates produced by radiometric methods to agree with the relative dating produced by paleontological methods. Perhaps next time you pray you could ask him to stop lying to geologists.
Geological processes normally take time. If Faith can show us how continents can collide, then separate again within a year, that would go a long way toward supporting her argument.
I'm not sure how many igneous events there are in the British Isles, but there are at least three main events dating from the Silurian to Paleogene and there is deformation and erosion between all of them. And after, if you count today.
If fauna are changing also, it's kind of hard to deny that there is plenty of time for evolution.

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 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 6:51 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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 Message 142 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 9:58 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 142 of 1163 (786444)
06-21-2016 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by edge
06-21-2016 6:57 PM


Volcanoes in the UK
Geological processes normally take time. If Faith can show us how continents can collide, then separate again within a year, that would go a long way toward supporting her argument.
Except I don't believe there have been any collisions -- except India of course as it collided with Asia, perhaps some other small events like that but no large-scale collisions that formed continents that later broke up. Otherwise just separations, all of which must have occurred during the end phase of the Flood or soon afterward, one major though complex event including both volcanic eruptions and tectonic movement. It started the continents drifting apart, which they continue to do to this day, slowing down over the last four thousand plus years. Can I prove this either? Not directly. Mostly all I can do is try to show the absurdity of the OE interpretations, and the cross section of England is really good evidence for a lack of tectonic activity at any time except after all strata were laid down, volcanic activity too.
I'm not sure how many igneous events there are in the British Isles,
Eleven, according to Wikipedia
but there are at least three main events dating from the Silurian to Paleogene and there is deformation and erosion between all of them. And after, if you count today.
Would you please explain what evidence you have of igneous events occurring in a particular time period? The Wikipedia article claims such timing for the eleven they list. What is the evidence that any of them occurred at a particular time as identified by the strata associated with the named Time Periods? And what degree of "deformation and erosion" BETWEEN them can you point to? I see no particular disturbance to any particular layer on the cross section of England: one would expect some pretty dramatic "deformation and erosion" that would distinguish such a layer from the stack as a unit and there is no such thing.
If fauna are changing also, it's kind of hard to deny that there is plenty of time for evolution.
Fauna within a Kind can change very rapidly, forming new species within decades or a century or two. And whatever evidence you think shows volcanic eruption during a particular Time Period is probably subject to a completely different interpretation that places all such disturbances after all the strata were laid down all over the globe.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 143 of 1163 (786445)
06-21-2016 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2016 6:51 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Millions of years is just too absurd on the face of it to account for the formation of different species. Evolution that is actually observed occurs fairly rapidly. It depends on variations already programmed into the genome of each creature or Kind that can form new species when new traits are selected and isolated. The amount of trial and error and death that would have to occur in a million years, let alone the hundreds of millions imputed by the ToE just to get from reptiles to mammals is beyond anything that could realistically occur. You put all your trust in radiometric dating. I don't know why it's wrong but it's obviously wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 6:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2016 10:17 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 146 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2016 11:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 144 of 1163 (786446)
06-21-2016 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
06-21-2016 9:58 PM


Re: Volcanoes in the UK
India of course as it collided with Asia, perhaps some other small events like that ...
You have not lost your ability to make me laugh.
However, if you want to talk about continents rifting and colliding, please make the main thrust of your argument about the fossil evidence, as this is the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 9:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 145 of 1163 (786447)
06-21-2016 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
06-21-2016 10:11 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Millions of years is just too absurd on the face of it to account for the formation of different species. Evolution that is actually observed occurs fairly rapidly. It depends on variations already programmed into the genome of each creature or Kind that can form new species when new traits are selected and isolated. The amount of trial and error and death that would have to occur in a million years, let alone the hundreds of millions imputed by the ToE just to get from reptiles to mammals is beyond anything that could realistically occur.
Show your working. On a thread on which it would be relevant. Then I'll show you mine, which will be easier 'cos I've actually done some instead of just making shit up.
I don't know why it's wrong but it's obviously wrong.
Do you ever stop and listen to yourself saying stuff like that and wonder about yourself?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 10:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 146 of 1163 (786454)
06-21-2016 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
06-21-2016 10:11 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
You put all your trust in radiometric dating. I don't know why it's wrong but it's obviously wrong.
Ignorance is not evidence, nor is religious belief.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 10:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 147 of 1163 (786455)
06-22-2016 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
06-21-2016 5:24 PM


Re: Limestones, trilobites and so-called faunal succession.
quote:
Correction: For "descended from" substitute "evolved later than."
Then you still don't understand faunal succession. Your own quote tells us it is simply the order in the rocks.
quote:
abe: However, perhaps you recall the discussion about how the mammalian ear evolved from the reptilian. Descent is implied from reptile to mammal. That's what evolution means, you know, descent with modification. It doesn't have to be direct descent but it IS descent and the claim about the form of the ear shows that evos think it is.
The issue isn't evolution but the observation of faunal succession in the limestone. If you choose to raise irrelevant objections to the observation it shows that you do not understand what you are objecting to.
But thank you for proving Dr. Adequate right. Perhaps you should learn to think before typing. And that is honest advice - you do yourself no good by posting obvious falsehoods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 5:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 1163 (786456)
06-22-2016 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by edge
06-21-2016 6:26 PM


Re: Limestones, trilobites and so-called faunal succession.
The section you referred to does not show much effect from that event. This is the same problem that you had with the Grand Canyon argument last year where you disregarded what was going on in the rest of the world and focused on one small region of the earth. Remember when you said that there was no tectonism going on while the GC sediments were being deposited? That also was demonstrably false.
You posted what you thought were demonstrations of tectonism during the deposition of the strata, but the demonstrations were all ambiguous, and in a couple of cases I was able to show that they wre just as easily interpreted from my point of view. The distortions you identify as disturbance within the strata are just as easily explained as having occurred after all were laid down. Layers above simply removed, exposing the layer in qustion, and why should that be anyway? If the distrubance occurred before the rest of the strata were laid down, why is there no evidence of their having been laid down on top of it? THere is no such evidence in your current example either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by edge, posted 06-21-2016 6:26 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by edge, posted 06-22-2016 6:25 AM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 149 of 1163 (786462)
06-22-2016 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
06-22-2016 12:39 AM


Re: Limestones, trilobites and so-called faunal succession.
THere is no such evidence in your current example either.
Well, then, show us your contradicting evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 06-22-2016 12:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 06-22-2016 1:52 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 1163 (786488)
06-22-2016 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by edge
06-22-2016 6:25 AM


Re: Limestones, trilobites and so-called faunal succession.
Well, then, show us your contradicting evidence.
If I saw the examples again I might be able to show contradicting evidence, but the point was that your evidence was ambiguous, subject to other interpretations, not that different evidence was needed but that your evidence wasn't conclusive.
One thing that might help is thinking about the direction of the tectonic forces and why they might affect one location but not another. Seems to me the main forces are always coming from the same direction, being the forces that keep the continents moving. Are there others? Seems to me that YOU need to explain how a supposed tectonic event disrupted a particular layer in one location but not others that are nearby.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by edge, posted 06-22-2016 6:25 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
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