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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 61 of 887 (786362)
06-20-2016 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 5:17 PM


Re: Important Question
Cat Sci writes:
Has she offered any opinion on whether they should stay or go?
Constitutionally, she can not say. So she doesn't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 5:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 887 (786364)
06-20-2016 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tangle
06-20-2016 5:28 PM


Re: Important Question
Constitutionally, she can not say. So she doesn't.
Wait, the Queen does't have the freedom of speech!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:28 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 3:27 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 64 by caffeine, posted 06-21-2016 6:18 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 63 of 887 (786373)
06-21-2016 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 6:24 PM


Re: Important Question
Cat Sci writes:
Wait, the Queen does't have the freedom of speech!?
On matters of politics, no.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 64 of 887 (786375)
06-21-2016 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 6:24 PM


Re: Important Question
Wait, the Queen does't have the freedom of speech!?
Yes, but so do people who sign non-disclosure agreements. If she really needs to express an opinion, she can abdicate. If she wants to be Queen, she is required to shut up and wave.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Big_Al35, posted 06-21-2016 9:59 AM caffeine has replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 65 of 887 (786383)
06-21-2016 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by caffeine
06-21-2016 6:18 AM


Re: Important Question
caffeine writes:
If she really needs to express an opinion, she can abdicate. If she wants to be Queen, she is required to shut up and wave.
I love these throw away lines. Yes if she wants to express an opinion she should give up her entire way of life and everything she has ever known. Meanwhile back in reality ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by caffeine, posted 06-21-2016 6:18 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 11:59 AM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 68 by caffeine, posted 06-21-2016 12:36 PM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 06-21-2016 12:39 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 66 of 887 (786391)
06-21-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Big_Al35
06-21-2016 9:59 AM


Re: Important Question
BigA writes:
I love these throw away lines. Yes if she wants to express an opinion she should give up her entire way of life and everything she has ever known. Meanwhile back in reality ...
That IS the reality. No ifs, no buts.
She can express her political opinions once she is no longer the monarch, otherwise she keeps schtum.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Big_Al35, posted 06-21-2016 9:59 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Diomedes, posted 06-21-2016 12:05 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 67 of 887 (786394)
06-21-2016 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tangle
06-21-2016 11:59 AM


John Oliver - Brexit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2016 11:59 AM Tangle has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 68 of 887 (786398)
06-21-2016 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Big_Al35
06-21-2016 9:59 AM


Re: Important Question
I love these throw away lines. Yes if she wants to express an opinion she should give up her entire way of life and everything she has ever known. Meanwhile back in reality ...
It's part of the nature of being a constitutional monarch that there are rules you have to obey to remain monarch.
And going from queen back to princess (like she used to be) is hardly the abandonment of all she has ever known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Big_Al35, posted 06-21-2016 9:59 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 887 (786399)
06-21-2016 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Big_Al35
06-21-2016 9:59 AM


Re: Important Question
BigAl35 writes:
Yes if she wants to express an opinion she should give up her entire way of life and everything she has ever known.
She wouldn't be giving up anything. King Charles is hardly likely to throw his own mother out in the street. He's unpopular enough already.
The reason she doesn't express an opinion is because it's her duty not to take sides. The royals are big on duty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Big_Al35, posted 06-21-2016 9:59 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 70 of 887 (786439)
06-21-2016 8:51 PM


Remember the main issue driving "Leave" or Brexit.
It is mostly native British people thinking that poorer immigrants are making them poorer. Such as the Polish immigrants.
But academic studies show that the solidly "rich" South Korean nation of 44 million people would actually see a rise in incomes (especially by 2050 if unification happened soon) if the ultra-poor North Korean population of 24 million unified with the south.
North Korea is about the most poor nation in the world if you convert their incomes to U.S. currency.
Similarly, the Brits will gain (IMO) from the Polish gains in income (which Brits feel is on their backs), which are happening rapidly. The Brits have already gained from the EU, really.
This is a case of not understanding the massive payback that comes when you help to develop the underdeveloped nations. More massive than people imagine, and not enough "native" people (Brits, Americans, or otherwise) seem to see development (especially when it comes from immigrants traveling to a natives country to make a higher income - which gets sent back to the immigrants home in part) as a priority that is fundamental to their own (eventual if not immediate) growth.
I think this is the fundamental issue.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 2:45 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 71 of 887 (786460)
06-22-2016 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by LamarkNewAge
06-21-2016 8:51 PM


Re: Remember the main issue driving "Leave" or Brexit.
Lamark writes:
I think this is the fundamental issue.
Not really. The fundamental issue for those that are voting to leave is that they feel that the UK is a small overpopulated island that can't accept immigration at the rate it's happening. It's schools, hospitals, housing, roads and infrastructure can't support it. Inside that is a dislike of how the UK is no longer, they say, British.
They're quite happy to play off unverifyable, esoteric and indirect long-term economic benefits against those more obvious and direct disbenefits that they actually see and feel right now.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-21-2016 8:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 10:44 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 76 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-22-2016 4:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 72 of 887 (786472)
06-22-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
06-22-2016 2:45 AM


Re: Remember the main issue driving "Leave" or Brexit.
So you support leaving the EU?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 2:45 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 11:25 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 73 of 887 (786476)
06-22-2016 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Theodoric
06-22-2016 10:44 AM


Re: Remember the main issue driving "Leave" or Brexit.
Theo writes:
So you support leaving the EU?
No, I was just explaining the exit argument.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 10:44 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 74 of 887 (786477)
06-22-2016 11:32 AM


Predictions
The vote can't be called, there's no history to rely on - but the result looks likely to be close.
Tomorrow we vote for something that can't be undone in a generation if ever. It's a big, big thing that will directly affect the lives of my children and theirs.
Time for predictions. What will happen on Friday morning if we vote out?
I predict a sterling and stock market crash.
There'll also be chaos in parliament. Sooner or later - sooner - the PM will be chucked out and the right wingers will have their way until another general election.
It frightens me what will happen after that, I can only hope that the undecideds are just as frightened and vote for the status quo.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by caffeine, posted 06-22-2016 1:07 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 77 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-22-2016 4:16 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 81 by Heathen, posted 06-23-2016 6:16 AM Tangle has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 75 of 887 (786484)
06-22-2016 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
06-22-2016 11:32 AM


Re: Predictions
I've been thinking about what happens in the event of a ridiculously close vote to leave. Legally, the government is under no obligation to obey the referendum results; but politically of course it would be suicidal to ignore a leave vote.
But what if the leave vote gets something like 50.2%? It seems to me that it would then be perfectly justifiable to hold a second referendum after we actually know the terms on which Britain would leave. However, I'm sure that would be perceived and treated a underhanded vacillation and an attempt to evade the public will. And the knowledge that a second referendum would follow would be a big incentive for other EU states to refuse any terms even remotely favourable to Britain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 11:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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