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Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Show me the intelligence ... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Not exactly a new topic, but it always seems to get side-tracked.
I'll not suggest anything about whether designs CAN comeabout without an intelligence, but just ask if someone can point to what it is about a system (any system) design that indicates that an intelligence was responsible for it.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
It's in the IK in the Wist Modlands
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Perhaps my question is too obtuse.
Suppose I found a watch in a field what about the watchwould make one consider it to be the product of an intelligence?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
In a way that's what I was getting at.
Is there some feature of a watch (beyond knowing thatwatches ARE intelligently designed, or that one could see signs of tooling) that says it is designed by an intelligence. I wasn't using it as an analogy, but as an example of a knownintelligent design (and whimsically for obvious reasons). Suppose you were an alien coming to a desolate planet andfound a watch. What about the watch would suggest it as an artifact of an intelligence?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
This is what I'm trying to get at.
If the only way we can say that something that we KNOWis designed by an intelligence is because we know it was designed by an intelligence ... how can we even assess the intelligent design content of an object ANY object ... even a watch.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I agree that we cannot place ourselves in an alien's
shoes ... but the comments so far seem to be heading toward, basically, that we cannot determine whether intelligence was involved even for something which we KNOW in advance was intelligently designed.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Not asking about design -- asking about intelligence. But one cannot know whether a smow-flake was intelligently designedor not without knowing that it was intelligently designed. quote: More or less my point. Unless one knows the IDer one cannotknow that there was ID .... even for objects that we know where the product of intelligent design (am ... am I repeating myself? ). quote: No ... it's just not terribly useful/informative.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Sorry, forgot to answer a direct question:
quote: My answer to this question is: I cannot think of anything.Perhaps some recognisable maker's mark, or an instruction manual with revision number ... flippant perhaps, but that's how I see things. That's my problem, and why I started this thread. I cannot seeany way of determining the 'intelligent' input to an extant object ... even one that is a KNOWN intelligent design ... like a watch.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Great! Perhaps you can get him/her/it to post here and endall our confusions
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Am I to take it, judging by the sharp change in direction,
that there is nothing that anyone can think of about any object that they may come across from which the input of an intelligence could be inferred/deduced or otherwise determined?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
That's the problem -- 'we assume'.
If no one can come up with something aboutthe pocket watch that suggests intelligent input, what hope to we have for anything else? A snow-flake doesn't reproduce either does thathave an intelligent input? Why/why not?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
You appear to be saying that there is nothing inherent
in a watch (a known intelligent design) that could lead one to conclude that an intelligence was involved -- apart from already knowing that to be the case. Is that a correct understanding of your opinion?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Whether the 'designs' are 'good' or not has no bearing on
my original question. There are plenty of human designs that are flawed, somefatally so -- if that were not the case there would not be increasing interest in various forms of safety analysis, and structured design approaches. Many human designs are 'poor', but there is still an intelligentinput. The perceived quality of the object/system in question isin no way connected to the intelligent input to the 'design'. If natural selection does indeed drive evolution (along withisoaltion etc. etc.) then one can have designs that had no intelligent input -- how do we determine the intelligent input?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
So that's a 'Yes' then.
We cannot determine that an intelligence was involved,we can only know that to be the case. So we cannot know (one way or the other) whether intelligencewas involved in biological system design. Doesn't that leave ID high and dry unless that question issatisfactorily answered? Evolutionary theory proposes mechanisms that would not requireintelligent input, and supports those with evidence. ID theory proposes intelligent intervention, but can have noevidence to support that contention.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1509 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Not considering design at all at the moment, only
the identification of an intelligent input into the design.
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