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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 46 of 887 (786326)
06-20-2016 11:48 AM


I think John Oliver sums it up well in this song. Some graphic language is in the song so viewer discretion is advised.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 799 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


(1)
Message 47 of 887 (786336)
06-20-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
06-20-2016 10:12 AM


jar writes:
To what end? Neither the US nor Italy have any enforcement authority over the Vatican any more than they have enforcement authority over the UK or Russia or any other Nation State.
Does the US have enforcement authority over Iraq? No but they did it anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 06-20-2016 10:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-20-2016 3:26 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 48 of 887 (786338)
06-20-2016 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
06-20-2016 10:12 AM


The US and Italy are investigating the Vatican over the Vatican's Tax Affairs? And what other matters are being investigated?
Sheesh.
To what end? Neither the US nor Italy have any enforcement authority over the Vatican any more than they have enforcement authority over the UK or Russia or any other Nation State.
They would have to the extent that the Vatican owns property in the US or Italy. The Catholic Church does have to pay taxes on the property it owns; despite having various exemptions in different countries due to absurd, antiquated laws; so there's no reason a government couldn't be investigating it for tax evasion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 06-20-2016 10:12 AM jar has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 49 of 887 (786343)
06-20-2016 2:08 PM


Lets look at a unified Korea.
First, look at the growth of South Korea. In 1980, the average per person income was $1,700 per year. Now it is about $28,000 per year. With double the population, we have a GDP that is about 30 times larger. China has a GDP that is like 50 times larger than 1980. It is tru that US dollar inflation has been like 200% (mostly during the 1980s) since 1980.
GDP per Capita by Country | Forecast from IMF | 2020-2024 - knoema.com
Now, what would a unified Korea look like in 2050? If they unified today, then the GDP would be larger than Japan's by 2050!
Google
Right now, the 44 million people in South Korea make on average $28,000 per year. The 24 million in North Korea make just a few hundred a year. The 130 million in Japan make around $34,000 (I'm going by memory on the Japan numbers, but they can be checked).
There isn't any evidence that unification does anything but help immensely. In the United States, we expanded states into the union since World War 2 and nothing bad came of it. We technologically advanced during the 1950s (the large military budget led to the laser being invented and 1/3 of all economic growth since came from it) and our Martial Plan reaped worldwide economic benefits which combined with the fruits of scientific discoveries for an economic explosion.
It helped enormously that regulation on business and industry was super weak, though down-the-road health and environmental consequences (like rivers catching on fire in the 1970s) made the short term benefits seem like quite a trade-off. Regulation has made things much tougher.
Many difficult things are necessary but have made jobs harder to create (like regulations).
Just don't blame free trade, immigration, and unification. The source of our post 1990 growth has been blamed for problems coming from other factors.

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2016 2:18 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 50 of 887 (786346)
06-20-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by LamarkNewAge
06-20-2016 2:08 PM


Re: Lets look at a unified Korea.
You do realise that GDP is NOT personal income ? Let alone the median income, as you claimed earlier.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2016 2:08 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2016 3:10 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 56 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2016 5:01 PM PaulK has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 51 of 887 (786347)
06-20-2016 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by PaulK
06-20-2016 2:18 PM


Re: Lets look at a unified Korea.
Earlier, I said that the $57,000 per year national average was median.
My mistake was that the $57,000 (in 2016) was household median, not an individual.
The median U.S. household income was $51,000,in May 2013, while Asians were at about $73,000 and the 3.6 million (in May 2013) Indian American household median was over $100,000.
GDP represents wealth created and the growth has been impressive. I am saying that we shouldn't destroy the things that create wealth (immigration, trade, unification). The biggest problem is that Americans are super ignorant about what has created such robust growth since 1990.
Lets identify the problems - correctly.
Was unification bad for West Germans?
Was the civil war (and further American expansion) bad for growth?
Is unification bad for South Koreans income?
Is the 25% larger growth for the U.K. , than would have been the case if the E.U. (precursor) wasn't joined in the 70s, bad?
The 25% larger growth for Denmark, had not the Danish nation joined the E.U. in the 70s, bad?
The 50% larger growth for Ireland. Good? Bad?
The tip of the iceberg is the proven benefits we have gotten for the (so far only) small amount of immigration, free trade, and unification we have won through hard fought progressive policy making over the past decades.
We need to build on the progress.
We can't with such confusion rampant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2016 2:18 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 06-20-2016 3:27 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 887 (786349)
06-20-2016 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Big_Al35
06-20-2016 12:59 PM


BigAl writes:
jar writes:
To what end? Neither the US nor Italy have any enforcement authority over the Vatican any more than they have enforcement authority over the UK or Russia or any other Nation State.
Does the US have enforcement authority over Iraq? No but they did it anyway.
And as usual your point, if their is one, is absurd.
What does that have to do with the topic?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Big_Al35, posted 06-20-2016 12:59 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 53 of 887 (786350)
06-20-2016 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by LamarkNewAge
06-20-2016 3:10 PM


Re: Lets look at a unified Korea.
No, your mistake is thinking that GDP per capita has anything to do with per capita income.
GNP per capita would be a less flawed measurement. Using GDP does not help your argument.
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) vs Gross National Product (GNP) - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2016 3:10 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2016 4:08 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 54 of 887 (786351)
06-20-2016 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Theodoric
06-20-2016 3:27 PM


Re: Lets look at a unified Korea.
Look at Vietnam then.
In 2005, the per capita income was $700.
Now it is $2100
Poverty went down from 66% to 24% since around 1995.
India went down from 66% (or 80% as I forget exactly) in the late 1990s to around 25% to 30% today. The average income was something like $1600 for 2015 and all signs point toward strong growth in 2016 (and beyond). The average was about $300 in 1997. Credible estimates say that the average would need to be $6000 per person on average for poverty to end.
China has seen poverty go so low that it is in the high single digits at most.
You think South Koreans haven't seen benefits?
Lets get real. The world has enough wealth that the average income per person is now $12,000 per year and that is with all sorts of ruinous borders and bottlenecks slowing growth and prolonging pain. End all borders today and see average incomes double in a few years. We could have a worldwide constitutional right to quality healthcare implemented with the wealth that exists right now, never mind what wealth would be at without all the horrible torturous borders.
The last paragraph could not be true if it was anytime in the last century, even the 1990s. Granted, we could theoretically end borders at any time, and see explosive growth AT ANY TIME this century or last.
2016 is the most wealthy the world has ever been.
And it's because of progressive implementations like the European Union.
Why go backward?
Lives and human progress - on all fronts - are at stake.
This is serious business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 06-20-2016 3:27 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 887 (786353)
06-20-2016 4:50 PM


Important Question
What is the Queen saying?

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2016 5:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 56 of 887 (786355)
06-20-2016 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by PaulK
06-20-2016 2:18 PM


Re: Lets look at a unified Korea.
quote:
[PaukK]
You do realise that GDP is NOT personal income
I found out that India is getting awfully close to having an average income of $6000 per person when it comes to purchasing power (not the same as the $6000 U.S. in actual currency which was the poverty ending benchmark I mentioned earlier), which is impressive because it was only $1600 when that underground nuclear test was conducted in the late 1990s.
quote:
With a population of over one billion, it’s no surprise that India is a power player in the world’s top economies. In terms of purchasing power parity, India ranks in at third place with a GDP of 7.28 trillion. However, the large population of the country drags its GDP per capita down to $5,778.
The Top 10 Strongest Economies in the World - Gazette Review
I suppose India is passing $6000 PPP for 2016 as we speak here in June.
But it is only about $1500 to $1600 in U.S. dollars for 2015.
India is perhaps the most important nation in the world. About 18% of the world's population (and it would be over 20% had the British not chopped it up in the first half of the last century) and it is a nation that once had 25% to 33% of the worlds wealth until the British arrived in 1750 and brought it down to 2% by 1947. It fell below 1.5% by the late 1990s.
Now the real U.S. dollar GNP of India is over 2.5% of the worlds wealth. Just under $2 trillion in U.S. dollar value (the $7 trillion is using purchasing power adjustments and is a bad way to measure wealth though on an individual level it is very useful for purchasing power indicators).
India wouldn't have this kind of growth if it was chopped up like Africa or the Middle East. It is chopped up but nothing like those places. The British are mostly to blame.
Nice if the older Brits would own up to the continued mess of the world they caused. Shouldn't be a shock that the over 65 crowd in the U.K. are 75% opposed to staying while those under 65 strongly favor staying, especially those under 50.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2016 2:18 PM PaulK has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 57 of 887 (786356)
06-20-2016 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 4:50 PM


Re: Important Question
quote:
What is the Queen saying?
She claims to be the "defender of the [Christian] faith" so the New Testament would demand staying in as nationalism is very much opposed by James and Paul (and James' views would suggest that Jesus was anti-nationalist too though the actual quoted comments of Jesus would require interpretation to determine if he actually felt Canaanites were lower peoples or if he was just using colorful speech to make a larger point toward moving away from nationalism).
The head of the Anglican church had the audacity to claim that there is no position the Bible takes on the issue. I would classify that as a lie. The Old Testament is nationalistic and the New testament is anti-nationalist (starting with Acts and then after).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 4:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 5:16 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 58 of 887 (786358)
06-20-2016 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 4:50 PM


Re: Important Question
Cat Sci writes:
What is the Queen saying?
"Which fucking oik was idiot enough to ask the fucking proles what to do with my fucking country?"
Or something like that.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 4:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 5:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 887 (786359)
06-20-2016 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by LamarkNewAge
06-20-2016 5:07 PM


Re: Important Question
She claims to be the "defender of the [Christian] faith" so the New Testament would demand staying in as nationalism is very much opposed by James and Paul (and James' views would suggest that Jesus was anti-nationalist too though the actual quoted comments of Jesus would require interpretation to determine if he actually felt Canaanites were lower peoples or if he was just using colorful speech to make a larger point toward moving away from nationalism).
The head of the Anglican church had the audacity to claim that there is no position the Bible takes on the issue. I would classify that as a lie. The Old Testament is nationalistic and the New testament is anti-nationalist (starting with Acts and then after).
Okay, so that's what she is "supposed" to say... what is she actually saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2016 5:07 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 887 (786360)
06-20-2016 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tangle
06-20-2016 5:11 PM


Re: Important Question
Has she offered any opinion on whether they should stay or go?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2016 5:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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