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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(5)
Message 61 of 1163 (786207)
06-18-2016 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
06-18-2016 8:25 PM


Re: TOPIC
Just about any university library. Public universities would be better, since a Bible college would be likely to censor such information.
Here's a account by Merle Hertzler, one of the first and only honest creationists I have encountered in three decades. While every other creationist on CompuServe in the late 1980's just regurgitated the creationist crap they had fed on and resorted to highly dishonest actions to avoid discussing their own claims (obviously because they did not understand them themselves), Merle was the shining exception. He engaged in discussion to the best of his ability. And, unlike the transparent lies of his creationist brethren, when he said that he would research something, he did research it.
Honest creationists are rare and do not last long. Within a year, he had learned that YEC was false and found himself on the other side.
He tells that story at Did We Evolve? in which a visit to the university library and the research there opened his eyes:
quote:
Years ago I was fighting the good fight of creation on the Internet. I argued that evolution was impossible, for it required that the genetic code had to be changed to make new kinds of animals. It did not seem feasible to me that evolution could do this. I argued in the CompuServe debate forum, basing my arguments on Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crises. My favorite illustration was the difference between mammals and reptiles. The differences between living mammals and reptiles are substantial. Mammals all have hair, mammary glands, a four-chambered heart, and the distinct mammalian ear, with three little bones inside. These features are found in no living reptiles. I argued that this is because there is no viable intermediate between the two, that an animal could have either the reptile genetic code or the mammal code but could not be in the middle.

An evolutionist disagreed with me. He told me that in the past there had been many intermediates. He said that there were animals that, for instance, had jaw and ear bones that were intermediate between reptiles and mammals. How did he know this? He gave a reference to an essay in Stephen Gould's Ten Little Piggies . I wrote back that since the local library had a large collection of children's book, I should be able to find that book. (I thought I was so funny). I borrowed the book, and found an interesting account of how bones in the reptile jaw evolved and changed through millions of years to become the mammals' ear. That sounded like such a clever tale. How could Gould believe it? Perhaps he made it up. But there was one little footnote, a footnote that would change my life. It said simply, "Allin, E. F. 1975. Evolution of the Mammalian Middle Ear. Journal of Morphology 147:403-38." That's it. That's all it said. But it was soon to have a huge impact on me. You see, I had developed this habit of looking things up, and had been making regular trips to the University of Pennsylvania library. I was getting involved in some serious discussions on the Internet, and was finding the scientific journals to be a reliable source of information. Well, I couldn't believe that a real scientific journal would take such a tale seriously, but, before I would declare victory, I needed to check it out.

On my next trip to the university, I found my way to the biomedical library and located the journal archives. I retrieved the specified journal, and started to read. I could not believe my eyes. There were detailed descriptions of many intermediate fossils. The article described in detail how the bones evolved from reptiles to mammals through a long series of mammal-like reptiles. I paged through the volume in my hand. There were hundreds of pages, all loaded with information. I looked at other journals. I found page after page describing transitional fossils. More significantly, there were all of those troublesome dates. If one arranged the fossils according to date, he could see how the bones changed with time. Each fossil species was dated at a specific time range. It all fit together. I didn't know what to think. Could all of these fossil drawings be fakes? Could all of these dates be pulled out of a hat? Did these articles consist of thousands of lies? All seemed to indicate that life evolved over many millions of years. Were all of these thousands of "facts" actually guesses? I looked around me. The room was filled with many bookshelves; each was filled with hundreds of bound journals. Were all of these journals drenched with lies? Several medical students were doing research there. Perhaps some day they would need to operate on my heart or fight some disease. Was I to believe that these medical students were in this room filled with misinformation, and that they were diligently sorting out the evolutionist lies while learning medical knowledge? How could so much error have entered this room? It made no sense.
. . .
The impact of that day in the library was truly stunning. I didn't know what to say. I could not argue against the overwhelming evidence for mammal evolution. But neither could I imagine believing it. Something had happened to me. My mind had begun to think. And it was not about to be stopped. Oh no. There is no stopping the mind set free. I went to the library and borrowed a few books on evolution and creation--diligently studying both sides of the argument. I started to read the evolutionist books with amazement. I had thought that evolutionists taught that floating cows had somehow turned into whales; that hopeful monsters had suddenly evolved without transitions; that one must have blind faith since transitional fossils did not exist; that one must simply guess at the dates for the fossils; and that one must ignore all of the evidence for young-earth creation. I was surprised to learn what these scientist actually knew about the Creationist teachings of flood geology, of the proposed young-earth proofs, and of the reported problems of evolution. And I was surprised at the answers that they had for these Creationist arguments. And I was surprised to see all the clear, logical arguments for evolution. I read with enthusiasm. I learned about isochrons, intermediate fossils, the geologic column, and much more.

I would never see the world in the same light. Several weeks later I found myself staring at the fossil of a large dinosaur in a museum. I stared with amazement. I looked at the details of every bone in the back. And I wondered if a design so marvelous could really have evolved. But I knew that someone could show me another animal that had lived earlier and was a likely predecessor of this dinosaur that I was observing. And I knew that one could trace bones back through the fossil record to illustrate the path through which this creature had evolved. I stared and I pondered. And then I pondered some more.

Within days, I had lost interest in fighting evolution. I began to read more and speak less. When I did debate, I confined my arguments to the origin of life issue. But I could no longer ignore what I had learned. Several months later I first sent out an email with probing questions to a Creationist who had arrived on the scene. He never responded. I have not stopped questioning.


That is but a small part of that page and an even smaller part of his site.
The information is all there in the university libraries. All state universities are required to comply with ADA requirements. Or you could hire a "service monkey", a student, preferably majoring in paleontology or geology, to go do the researching for you.
It is all there in the libraries. Nothing is being kept secret. You just need to look.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 8:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:09 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 62 of 1163 (786208)
06-18-2016 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
06-18-2016 8:25 PM


Re: TOPIC
I have looked many times for clear information about where all the various fossils are located, also how many of what kind are exactly where, and found the information unavailable or so scanty and scattered as to be useless to me. If you have a good source kindly pass it on.
Well, I gave a link for the information about the Cretaceous fauna. For the rest, you know, you can just look up terror birds or giant ground sloths or whatever on Wikipedia and see that yes, they are found in South America, and giraffids in Africa, and so on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 8:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:19 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 1163 (786209)
06-18-2016 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
06-18-2016 7:50 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
Sounds logical I guess, but I doubt it, or at least it would be hard to calculate such a thing.
But easy to falsify it, as I did in my O.P.
Think of the nautiloid layer in the Redwall Limestone in the Grand Canyon -- millions of nautiloids encased in limestone, which by all the measurements Steve Austin did were all washed there in moving water.
How did he measure the motion of the water?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 7:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 1163 (786210)
06-18-2016 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by dwise1
06-18-2016 9:02 PM


Re: TOPIC
Are you talking about online sources? I'm physically unable to go to outside sources. But why shouldn't anyone at EvC who has a good source be unwilling to pass on the information?
An honest Christian Creationist knows the Bible is God's own inspired word. Nothing can change that. What CAN change is the various theories we come up with to reconcile geological and biological facts with the Biblical revelation. It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer. It may never be possible to answer all the questions, of course, and some hypotheses will have to be modified or given up, but there are plenty that have been answered, and the only hitch is that evothink is so entrenched most of our opponents can't even understand the answers, and can't see the absurdities of their own theories.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by dwise1, posted 06-18-2016 9:02 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:19 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 72 by dwise1, posted 06-18-2016 11:26 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 78 by NoNukes, posted 06-19-2016 3:19 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 1163 (786211)
06-18-2016 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
06-18-2016 9:06 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
How did he measure the motion of the water?
Mostly by the orientation of each nautiloid, which he plotted on a graph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:06 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 1163 (786212)
06-18-2016 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
06-18-2016 9:09 PM


Re: TOPIC
An honest Christian Creationist knows the Bible is God's own inspired word. Nothing can change that. What CAN change is the various theories we come up with to reconcile geological and biological facts with the Biblical revelation. It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer. It may never be possible to answer all the questions, of course, and some hypotheses will have to be modified or given up, but there are plenty that have been answered, and the only hitch is that evothink is so entrenched most of our opponents can't even understand the answers, and can't see the absurdities of their own theories.
An honest Christian flat-Earther knows the Bible is God's own inspired word. Nothing can change that. What CAN change is the various theories we come up with to reconcile geological and geographical facts with the Biblical revelation. It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer. It may never be possible to answer all the questions, of course, and some hypotheses will have to be modified or given up, but there are plenty that have been answered, and the only hitch is that spherothink is so entrenched most of our opponents can't even understand the answers, and can't see the absurdities of their own theories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 1163 (786213)
06-18-2016 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
06-18-2016 9:03 PM


Re: TOPIC
I would really like to find a comprehensive listing of all the fossils found everywhere, at what location and in what layer and how the layer was dated etc. Shouldn't there be such a reference easily accessible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:03 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 68 of 1163 (786214)
06-18-2016 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
06-18-2016 9:17 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
Mostly by the orientation of each nautiloid ...
... and since you said that there were "a billion or so" of them, one has to admire his dedication.
Austin himself claims to have measured 71 of them, but his results do not seem to be available on the internet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by dwise1, posted 06-18-2016 11:02 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 1:27 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 69 of 1163 (786215)
06-18-2016 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
06-18-2016 9:19 PM


Re: TOPIC
I would really like to find a comprehensive listing of all the fossils found everywhere, at what location and in what layer and how the layer was dated etc. Shouldn't there be such a reference easily accessible?
Yes, that would indeed be nice.
At present there are an estimated quarter of a million known fossil species, and of course many of these are represented by more than one fossil. So that would be quite a big job.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:19 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by herebedragons, posted 06-18-2016 11:21 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 70 of 1163 (786216)
06-18-2016 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
06-18-2016 9:31 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
Austin himself claims to have measured 71 of them, but his results do not seem to be available on the internet.
Yeah, well, you can't really trust anything that Dr. Steve Austin, PhD Geology, says, because first and foremost he is a creationist.
As a PhD Geology, he knows about radiometric dating and what indications to watch out for that would indicate conditions that would through a particular dating method off. So he has deliberately used that knowledge to seek out samples that he knew would yield false dates.
As a post-graduate student, he was hired by professional creationists (eg, the ICR) to earn his doctorate in geology and then come work for them so that they could claim to have a PhD in Geology on their staff. While working on his doctorate, he wrote several geology articles for his benefactors which were published in the Creation Research Society Quarterly under his pseudonym, Stuart Nevins. I have read a number of those articles. In those articles, he made many false statements and gross misrepresentations about geology, statements that any second-year geology undergraduate would know for a fact were false. He did that while a post-graduate student, so there is no way that he could not have known that what he was saying was completely false. He could not defend those articles by pleading ignorance, nor idiocy nor incompetence, since the extremely heavy intellectual and work demands that a real PhD program places on its candidates will weed out the idiots and the incompetents very quickly.
What we're left with is that he must be incredibly dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:31 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by edge, posted 06-18-2016 11:32 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 71 of 1163 (786218)
06-18-2016 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
06-18-2016 9:33 PM


Paleogeology resources
I would really like to find a comprehensive listing of all the fossils found everywhere, at what location and in what layer and how the layer was dated etc. Shouldn't there be such a reference easily accessible?
Yes, that would indeed be nice.
Did you know about these resources?
This one shows locations of collections in both current location and paleogeologic reconstruction.
PBDB Navigator
This one has access to specimen data and 39,000+ images
Burke Museum
This one has data on over 1 million occurrences:
Fossilworks / Paleobiology Database
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:33 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 72 of 1163 (786219)
06-18-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
06-18-2016 9:09 PM


Re: TOPIC
Are you talking about online sources? I'm physically unable to go to outside sources. But why shouldn't anyone at EvC who has a good source be unwilling to pass on the information?
Faith, didn't you even begin to bother to read what I had written?
DWise1 writes:
The information is all there in the university libraries. All state universities are required to comply with ADA requirements. Or you could hire a "service monkey", a student, preferably majoring in paleontology or geology, to go do the researching for you.
The information is there in the libraries. What part of "in the university libraries" are you incapable of understanding? If you cannot or will not go yourself, then hire a student to do your researching. A graduate student in that field should be a good candidate. I'm sure that if you were to call the geology or paleontology department that they could recommend one of their students. Of course, that would require you to speak with an actual geologist and I remember the series of screaming hysterics you flew into the last time I suggested that, so please refrain this time.
An honest Christian Creationist knows the Bible is God's own inspired word.
Who said anything about your god or your theology's ideas about the Bible? Creation science discussions are based on the creationists fundamental lie that they have scientific evidence to support their claims. As such, scientific sources are referenced and "scientific sources" are cited (though more often than not creationists will cite other creationists (or more commonly use other creationists as their sources while citing those other creationists' "scientific citations" and lie that those are their own sources) or science popularizations (eg, Popular Science, Reader's Digest) or out-dated sources since superceded by new discoveries. But first and foremost in "creation science", the creationist must do everything he can to hide the fact that there is nothing scientific about his claims, but rather it's all based on his narrowly sectarian religious beliefs -- the game of "Hide the Bible" is the very basis of "creation science" and is the reason why it was created in the first place as a deliberate deception whose purpose was to fool the post-Epperson courts.
Thus, in "creation science" discussions the creationist is normally intent on covering up the lies behind his claims, so his role demands dishonesty as well as a steadfast refusal to research any claims, whether they be his own or his opponent's. But sometimes there comes along a creationist who is honest and is willing to do the research into the claims that is needed. And when he does not that research, then he will learn the truth behind those claims. He will find himself facing reality.
Did you even bother to read that excerpt? Did you even bother to follow that link? Of course not. You want to avoid having to face reality.
Make that call and hire that student.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 73 of 1163 (786220)
06-18-2016 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by dwise1
06-18-2016 11:02 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
There is another ruinous part to the Stuart Nevins story. Steve Austin has claimed that the aftermath of the Mount Saint Helens eruption is what converted him to Young Earth Creationism. However, the fact is that he had published creationist articles as Stuart Nevins long prior to the eruption. Draw you own conclusion...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by dwise1, posted 06-18-2016 11:02 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 12:48 AM edge has replied
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 1:08 AM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 1163 (786223)
06-19-2016 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by edge
06-18-2016 11:32 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
There is another ruinous part to the Stuart Nevins story. Steve Austin has claimed that the aftermath of the Mount Saint Helens eruption is what converted him to Young Earth Creationism. However, the fact is that he had published creationist articles as Stuart Nevins long prior to the eruption. Draw you own conclusion...
PLEASE POST PROOF. This is highly unlikely and I suspect slander.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by edge, posted 06-18-2016 11:32 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by edge, posted 06-19-2016 10:30 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 1163 (786224)
06-19-2016 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by edge
06-18-2016 11:32 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
Here's a video of him discussing Mt. St. Helens. In the first few minutes he is asked to tell how his own thinking was affected by the event, and what he says is that it confirmed his dissertation. NOT that it made a YEC out of him. If he said that somewhere else you need to show that. If it was about his dissertation then he was already a geologist, sent to study geology AS A CREATIONIST.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by edge, posted 06-18-2016 11:32 PM edge has not replied

  
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